BULLETIN: Judge Orders Golden Panda Forfeiture

UPDATED 3:23 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) A federal judge has issued an order that formalizes the forfeiture of more than $14 million from Golden Panda Ad Builder to the U.S. government.

The ruling means that $14,048,598.07 seized from five Golden Panda bank accounts in the names of Clarence Busby or Dawn Stowers now belongs to the United States.  The money was seized as part of the probe into the affairs of AdSurfDaily Inc., a Florida company prosecutors said was engaging in wire fraud, money-laundering and the sale of unregistered securities — all while operating a Ponzi scheme.

One of the Golden Panda accounts contained precisely $6 million.

See our June 2 story about prosecutors’ request for a formal forfeiture order.

Read the judge’s forfeiture order.

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71 Responses to “BULLETIN: Judge Orders Golden Panda Forfeiture”

  1. Now that the government has control of these monies, when they start the refunds to the members, it is going to be interesting to see how the ASD people respond. Guess they just might realize the government wasn’t so “evil” after all, and if Andy and Curtis Richmond’s kooks would stop their frivilous Pro Se filings, and Andy and his attorney would respond as stipulated, then the ASD refunds to the victims of ASD can begin. Going to be hard for them to claim that the government “stole” the money for themselves mantra they love to spew once these refunds begin.

    Wonder what they will think of Andy and ASD then? Wait, I know the answer to this. Andy caved as he was forced to do, ASD was this great business model that the government could not let stand as it was making too many people rich, and it still was a conspiracy to destroy a great company.

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  2. ” it is going to be interesting to see how the ASD people respond. Guess they just might realize the government wasn’t so “evil” after all.”

    The “evil” has already been accomplished, and can’t be undone. I’ve received hundreds of testimonies last year from various ASD members, but the ones that affected me the most came from elderly members that are on social security and invested everything they had into ASD. They have nothing now, not even their house. Sure, they shouldn’t have invested everything. I agree. But how is this going to effect them now receiving partial money back? They already lost everything….

    As for as I’m concerned,I’m not expecting to see one dime back. If I do, great. If not, so be it.

    I don’t think any person under the age of 45 should get one penny back. Give full refunds back to the elderly!

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  3. Just a thought…why are the family members and friends that sponsored these elderly people in to this scam not being held accountable? If many of these people put in their life savings, ect., their uplines should be held accountable to some degree as they are the ones that most likely benefited from the large amounts going in.

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  4. I agree Cathy!

    When it comes time for clawbacks, this should be taken into consideration. I agree wholeheartedly.

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  5. Lynndel Edgington: Wonder what they will think of Andy and ASD then? Wait, I know the answer to this. Andy caved as he was forced to do, ASD was this great business model that the government could not let stand as it was making too many people rich, and it still was a conspiracy to destroy a great company.

    You say that in advance to try to take it away but that is exactly what it is. People were making tons and that means everyone. Show me one complaint from people involved, before the gov stepped in. Luckily I wasn’t there so they didn’t get my money. We’ll see just how much they decide to bestow upon people like they’re doing them some big favor. Hey they didn’t need saving.

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  6. Cathy G.: Just a thought…why are the family members and friends that sponsored these elderly people in to this scam not being held accountable?If many of these people put in their life savings, ect., their uplines should be held accountable to some degree as they are the ones that most likely benefited from the large amounts going in.

    Well it shouldn’t matter if the government heroes will give every penny back to those poor scammed elderly people. Lets see if they do. Ya wanna hear BS sidestepping wait till the gov starts offering explanations as to why so much has to be withheld. They’ll show you how sidestepping is really done.

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  7. What I hope and pray that the government discloses is the total amount of “ad packs” in existance. I would imagine that it would be close to $200MM or more.

    With that type of information even the mathematically challenged like Joe and Steve might finally realize that the “evil gubment” actually saved thousands of other people from getting sucked in and losing their money.

    Not sure if the Government does plan to provide that information, but, if they do it might go a LONG way in the all important task of Education about Ponzis.

    FS

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  8. First Step,

    Let me Intervene for you, about myself being mathematically challenged.. I’m currently tuturing my 3 nieces in algebra. Samantha age 9, is doing college level algebra.. thank you!
    She can probably out perform you in Algebra…

    I like your handle! Did you just get out of rehab? Don’t give up the program works… Just follow everything they tell you, and don’t fall off the wagon again!

    Not getting any lately?

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  9. joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: Wonder what they will think of Andy and ASD then? Wait, I know the answer to this. Andy caved as he was forced to do, ASD was this great business model that the government could not let stand as it was making too many people rich, and it still was a conspiracy to destroy a great company.

    You say that in advance to try to take it away but that is exactly what it is. People were making tons and that means everyone. Show me one complaint from people involved, before the gov stepped in. Luckily I wasn’t there so they didn’t get my money. We’ll see just how much they decide to bestow upon people like they’re doing them some big favor. Hey they didn’t need saving.

    I had a complaint with the Better Business Bureau before it was shut down.

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  10. Why does everyone want to continue to blame the evil government for taking away this great inovative business model?
    If it was legal and making everyone so darn much money don’t you think for a minute that the IRS would be happy that people were making money and paying their taxes on all this new found wealth?

    Oh yea, Andy wasn’t paying business income taxes, probably wasn’t paying employers taxes,fica, medicare, unemployment and such (they were being paid in ad packs) and the other taxes involved in running a legitimate business enterprise.
    And as far as the “big” winners in ASD that were able to cash out, do you think for a minute that they were paying their share? Highly doubt it.
    So again, if everyone was paying taxes like they should have been, this evil government might have welcomed it with open arms….and if it was legal. Entertained has given several scenerios on how to make this legal, but not one autosurf that has come across the board even remotely come close.
    Again, the government and IRS would love more money coming in via legal means.

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  11. Steve: First Step,Let me Intervene for you, about myself being mathematically challenged.. I’m currently tuturing my 3 nieces in algebra. Samantha age 9, is doing college level algebra..thank you!
    She can probably out perform you in Algebra…I like your handle!Did you just get out of rehab? Don’t give up the program works…Just follow everything they tell you, and don’t fall off the wagon again!Not getting any lately?

    You’re right Steve , lets just hope he can count to twelve.

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  12. Cathy G.:

    joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: Wonder what they will think of Andy and ASD then? Wait, I know the answer to this. Andy caved as he was forced to do, ASD was this great business model that the government could not let stand as it was making too many people rich, and it still was a conspiracy to destroy a great company.

    You say that in advance to try to take it away but that is exactly what it is. People were making tons and that means everyone. Show me one complaint from people involved, before the gov stepped in. Luckily I wasn’t there so they didn’t get my money. We’ll see just how much they decide to bestow upon people like they’re doing them some big favor. Hey they didn’t need saving.

    I had a complaint with the Better Business Bureau before it was shut down.

    Why? You weren’t making money? I doubt that.

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  13. Cathy G.: Why does everyone want to continue to blame the evil government for taking away this great inovative business model?
    If it was legal and making everyone so darn much money don’t you think for a minute that the IRS would be happy that people were making money and paying their taxes on all this new found wealth?Oh yea, Andy wasn’t paying business income taxes, probably wasn’t paying employers taxes,fica, medicare, unemployment and such (they were being paid in ad packs) and the other taxes involved in running a legitimate business enterprise.
    And as far as the “big” winners in ASD that were able to cash out, do you think for a minute that they were paying their share?Highly doubt it.
    So again, if everyone was paying taxes like they should have been, this evil government might have welcomed it with open arms….and if it was legal.Entertained has given several scenerios on how to make this legal, but not one autosurf that has come across the board even remotely come close.
    Again, the government and IRS would love more money coming in via legal means.

    Hey if you don’t pay taxes that’s a personal choice and the Gov can come after you for that. Go after those not paying, don’t shut down a money maker.

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  14. I never once anytime nor anywhere stated the “evil government or “evil gubment.”
    I did type this, “The “evil” has already been accomplished.”

    What has happened, specifically to numerous elderly ASD members has been an evil injustice beyond proportions. But, the governemnt isn’t evil its just the opposite… It’s caring, compassionate, and loving…
    I do understand, the process from Seizure to Ruling can take years! This is the “evil” I’m referring too… the Bureaucratic red Tape…

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  15. joe:

    Cathy G.:

    joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: Wonder what they will think of Andy and ASD then? Wait, I know the answer to this. Andy caved as he was forced to do, ASD was this great business model that the government could not let stand as it was making too many people rich, and it still was a conspiracy to destroy a great company.

    You say that in advance to try to take it away but that is exactly what it is. People were making tons and that means everyone. Show me one complaint from people involved, before the gov stepped in. Luckily I wasn’t there so they didn’t get my money. We’ll see just how much they decide to bestow upon people like they’re doing them some big favor. Hey they didn’t need saving.

    I had a complaint with the Better Business Bureau before it was shut down.

    Why? You weren’t making money? I doubt that.

    My upline, myself and my daughter had wired money in June and as of the 3rd week in July it had never been posted as received. For a total of $3550 between the 3 of us. And no, we never made any money!

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  16. joe:

    Cathy G.: Why does everyone want to continue to blame the evil government for taking away this great inovative business model?If it was legal and making everyone so darn much money don’t you think for a minute that the IRS would be happy that people were making money and paying their taxes on all this new found wealth?Oh yea, Andy wasn’t paying business income taxes, probably wasn’t paying employers taxes,fica, medicare, unemployment and such (they were being paid in ad packs) and the other taxes involved in running a legitimate business enterprise.And as far as the “big” winners in ASD that were able to cash out, do you think for a minute that they were paying their share?Highly doubt it.So again, if everyone was paying taxes like they should have been, this evil government might have welcomed it with open arms….and if it was legal.Entertained has given several scenerios on how to make this legal, but not one autosurf that has come across the board even remotely come close.Again, the government and IRS would love more money coming in via legal means.

    Hey if you don’t pay taxes that’s a personal choice and the Gov can come after you for that. Go after those not paying, don’t shut down a money maker.

    Well joe, the government DID go after Andy….not paying taxes!

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  17. Steve: First Step,Let me Intervene for you, about myself being mathematically challenged.. I’m currently tuturing my 3 nieces in algebra. Samantha age 9, is doing college level algebra..thank you!
    She can probably out perform you in Algebra…I like your handle!Did you just get out of rehab? Don’t give up the program works…Just follow everything they tell you, and don’t fall off the wagon again!Not getting any lately?

    Steve:

    Then, MR. Algebra, explain to me how the company can bring in $100, keep $50 for themselves (Leaving $50) and then pay out $125 leaving a difference of $75.

    Where does it come from?

    If there is enough money coming in to meet the outgoing request no one notices because there is enough to keep the lemmings happy. That’s what happened with ASD. But, at some point the growth becomes unsustainable.

    I don’t care HOW much “outside money” comes in, it’s IMPOSSIBLE to keep compounding at that rate.

    I will bet you dollars to donuts that if the government is able to pull together the screwed up books at ASD that the total in outstanding ad packs will be in excess, FAR in excess, of $200,000,000.

    So, MR Algebra, how would the company be able to honour those ad packs, that were growing at 1% a day with only $90,000,000 that was seized?

    They CAN’T!

    Are you telling me this little P.O.S. podunk company was going to be able to bring in outside revenue of $100,000,000 a quarter? that’s NET revenue that would be needed.

    Not likely!

    According to the company, they brought in over $90MILLION in June alone. Andy was able to keep $45MILLION of that (nice payday) and those putting in the $90 MILLION were expecting to get $112,500,000 back because they bought in based on the 125% anticipation.

    Sure, it wasn’t guaranteed, but, they were EXPECTING it.

    Please explain to me where that difference was going to come from. The company had $45,000,000 available to pay out $112,500,000.

    In addition, much of that $45,000,000 retained was probably needed to pay those with active ad packs from previous months.

    And you think that’s a sustainable business model?

    And, you think I’m the one with a drinking problem?

    hahahahahaha!!

    What is expecially sad is that otherwise moderately intelligent people can be sucked into these scams and continue to believe them even after they are dead.

    Scary, scary world.

    FS

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  18. Cathy G.:

    joe:

    Cathy G.:

    joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: Wonder what they will think of Andy and ASD then? Wait, I know the answer to this. Andy caved as he was forced to do, ASD was this great business model that the government could not let stand as it was making too many people rich, and it still was a conspiracy to destroy a great company.

    You say that in advance to try to take it away but that is exactly what it is. People were making tons and that means everyone. Show me one complaint from people involved, before the gov stepped in. Luckily I wasn’t there so they didn’t get my money. We’ll see just how much they decide to bestow upon people like they’re doing them some big favor. Hey they didn’t need saving.

    I had a complaint with the Better Business Bureau before it was shut down.

    Why? You weren’t making money? I doubt that.

    My upline, myself and my daughter had wired money in June and as of the 3rd week in July it had never been posted as received.For a total of $3550 between the 3 of us.And no, we never made any money!

    Ok that was at the end when they were being shut down or already had been. when it was up and running people were making money.

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  19. First Step

    “Then, MR. Algebra, explain to me how the company can bring in $100, keep $50 for themselves (Leaving $50) and then pay out $125 leaving a difference of $75.

    Where does it come from?”

    You can call me Steve,
    When did I ever say, I believed or disbelieved in the mathematics behind ASD or for that matter any of the program? I never did..
    Your a very hostile person though, I do realize that.. How’s first Step going for you?

    Most money making program on the internet are ponzi’s ….

    “And, you think I’m the one with a drinking problem?”

    Yes I do..

    All I said was, “The “evil” has already been accomplished, and can’t be undone.” and you equate that statement to:

    “Then, MR. Algebra, explain to me how the company can bring in $100, keep $50 for themselves (Leaving $50) and then pay out $125 leaving a difference of $75.”

    Yes, I think you do need to stay in First Step a few more weeks…

    All the best

    Steve

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  20. I think that Steve knows, and has posted the truth concerning ASD. joe also knows the truth. He knows that EVERY Ponzi scheme continues to pay out until it collapses, and then it pays nothing. Doesn’t matter if it is ASD, AVG, BAS, 12DP, CEP, Noobing, Madoff, Petters — they ALL pay until they collapse or are shut down by the authorities. It is not a sign of health that ASD was paying when it shut down, it was only an indication that more suckers were being brought in with new money. It would have inevitably collapsed. No Ponzi scheme has ever lasted for a LONG time, and certainly not “fast” Ponzi’s like these surfs. joe doesn’t care that the vast majority of people wind up losing — he has posted as much. He only cares if he is successful in stealing from others, including the elderly.

    First Step: What I hope and pray that the government discloses is the total amount of “ad packs” in existance. I would imagine that it would be close to $200MM or more.With that type of information even the mathematically challenged like Joe and Steve might finally realize that the “evil gubment” actually saved thousands of other people from getting sucked in and losing their money.Not sure if the Government does plan to provide that information, but, if they do it might go a LONG way in the all important task of Education about Ponzis.FS

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  21. Yep, I agree….

    Steve: I never once anytime nor anywhere stated the “evil government or “evil gubment.”I did type this, “The “evil” has already been accomplished.”What has happened, specifically to numerous elderly ASD members has been an evil injustice beyond proportions. But, the governemnt isn’t evil its just the opposite… It’s caring, compassionate, and loving…I do understand, the process from Seizure to Ruling can take years! This is the “evil” I’m referring too… the Bureaucratic red Tape…

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  22. FS,

    I think Steve has said it was unsustainable. joe’s the one who continues to sing the mathematical praises of these Ponzi schemes (w/o data of course).

    First Step: Then, MR. Algebra, explain to me how the company can bring in $100, keep $50 for themselves (Leaving $50) and then pay out $125 leaving a difference of $75. Where does it come from?If there is enough money coming in to meet the outgoing request no one notices because there is enough to keep the lemmings happy. That’s what happened with ASD. But, at some point the growth becomes unsustainable…………

    .Scary, scary world.FS

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  23. Steve:

    First of all, my name “First Step” relates to my hope that for those naive enough to have bought into the ASD system that some sort of closure and partial restitution might be forthcoming. Hence, the “First Step” towards that.

    Secondly, it just might be indicative of your true nature for your to try to attack my creditability by insulting the potential that I might have a substance abuse problem. I don’t but your attack on me surely was a small minded thing to do.

    Thirdly, as further evidence of your character, you readily admit that most online programs are ponzi yet you continued to promote and encourage others to join them knowing that someone would be left holding the bag (i.e. lose money). All you cared about was that it wasn’t you or your elderly relatives.

    Fourthly, the “evil” that was accomplished occurred on Day ONE when SlickAndyB and his handlers opened the ASDPonzi. The government’s action merely reduced the number of people who would be hurt by it’s furtherance.

    Feel free to continue to insult people rather than stay to the topics and faacts at hand. That is the character and game plan typical of ponzi promoters.

    You ARE in your element.

    FS

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  24. First Step,

    “First of all, my name “First Step” relates to my hope that for those naive enough to have bought into the ASD system that some sort of closure and partial restitution might be forthcoming. Hence, the “First Step” towards that.”

    I understand now that you explained the meaning, but you don’t expect one to realize your handle do you?

    “Secondly, it just might be indicative of your true nature for your to try to attack my creditability by insulting the potential that I might have a substance abuse problem. I don’t but your attack on me surely was a small minded thing to do.”

    You attacked me first buddy, I’m just standing my ground is all.

    “Thirdly, as further evidence of your character, you readily admit that most online programs are ponzi yet you continued to promote and encourage others to join them knowing that someone would be left holding the bag (i.e. lose money). All you cared about was that it wasn’t you or your elderly relatives.”

    Yes most programs are ponzi’s. I no longer encourage or promote them.

    “Fourthly, the “evil” that was accomplished occurred on Day ONE when SlickAndyB and his handlers opened the ASDPonzi. The government’s action merely reduced the number of people who would be hurt by it’s furtherance.”

    I’ll give you that one, but it also occurred again in Bureaucratic Red Tape…

    “Feel free to continue to insult people rather than stay to the topics and faacts at hand. That is the character and game plan typical of ponzi promoters.”

    Insult people?
    ” the mathematically challenged like Joe and Steve”
    What to you call this? Praising?
    If you start slinging mud at me, expect it back,

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  25. Why would any refunds take years ???

    Government conspiracy ???

    Bureaucratic red tape ???

    DoJ profiteering ???

    Let me see, now:

    * a claimed membership of 100,000

    * 100,000 X HOW MANY transactions ???

    * 100,000 claimed members of whom HOW MANY are verified “real people”

    * 0f 100,000 claimed members, HOW MANY are “playas” who have deliberately falsified their details making clawbacks difficult, if not impossible ???

    *Of 100,000 claimed members, HOW MANY used anonymous and untraceable payment processors making clawbacks difficult, if not impossible ???

    *Of 100,000 claimed members, HOW MANY are non US residents, making clawbacks difficult, if not impossible ???

    *In the above 3 categories, what time period would “complainers” suggest is spent on identifying, contacting and attempting to reclaim money ON BEHALF of said “complainers” ???

    *In ALL the above categories, do the “complainers” have any suggestion as to how much time and money should be allocated to completion of the task/s. Similarly, what would be an acceptable number of staff employed and at what skill level should said staff be ???

    * Given the size and complexity of the task/s at hand, does anyone have an idea of how to make said task/s proceed:

    1) faster
    2) more accurately
    3) more fairly

    while remaining totally within the requirements of all relevant laws AND satisfying the requirements of 100,000+ completely and utterly p****d off “victims” (which includes, by the way, a substantial number of professional playas)

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  26. From already public documents, you can surmise that there were $375,000,000 in liabilities, just from the 3 rallies. This represents 300,000,000 “ad pack” impressions. Add in the members who already had outstanding ad packs and new members not buying their adpacks at rallies, and I put the total number of adpacks outstanding at about half a billion at a minimum. Using these numbers, if the government refunds every dime seized, people will be getting 20% of their investments back. These numbers need to be tweeked a little though, to account for members in profit (who by all rights should be forced to refund all their payments to the Government) and as this is not a receivership but a victims of crime fund, members who hope to get anything are going to have to qualify, fill out paperwork etc… As participating in a ponzi scheme, even as a simple member, is technically illegal, they can of course refuse to give anyone anything, which they won’t. But I think, and hope, that they will at least ask if members have participated in any more autosurfs either before or since ASD and if you have, well, you’ll have some explaining to do. Also, it’s likely that the IRS will be a little interested in people who get refunds, and maybe they’ll do a little checking into the online activities of at least the people who are claiming large amounts. Someone puts $100 in to advertise a small business, I can buy that, but the people who bought tens of thousands of dollars in apacks and then put up a sham site, or their referral links to other “programs”, I sincerely hope they get a little attention from more than one other agency, if they get their refund at all.

    First Step: What I hope and pray that the government discloses is the total amount of “ad packs” in existance.I would imagine that it would be close to $200MM or more.With that type of information even themathematically challenged like Joe and Steve might finally realize that the “evil gubment” actually saved thousands of other people from getting sucked in and losing their money.Not sure if the Government does plan to provide that information, but, if they do it might go a LONG way in the all important task of Education about Ponzis.FS

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  27. That 20% number uses the rounded up figure of $100 million seized, the actual number is I think $93 million and not all of that in cash, on further thought, I’d say that 15% is more like it, and there isn’t enough money to approach 20%, unless the people disqualified and/or afraid to even file a claim wipes out a lot of people.

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  28. It’s not that complex littleround man,

    You simply write a computer program that would handle the tasks.. Perl would be the best program since its a database. Pull out your criteria you want, and that’s it! The real job is writing the checks…but that can be automated as well..

    You could have the program go through the entire Database and sort based upon critera.. If nothing shows for that file or number, you physically look at it and make a determination based on that.

    Your really making it alot harder than it is.

    If I was writing the program, I would add an age factor into the program. Say from age 55 up and the oldest would be paid first and in full if they didn’t have a downline of more than say, “5” and they never cashed out, and they weren’t a founding member..

    As the program works into the database,the funds decrease.. When age 55 was meet, the rest of the funds would be evenly divided up with existing members that had less than 5 in a downline and or made or = July 1st 2008 And Age > or = 55 then

    above is a simple compound if statement..

    if ($age > 55 and Downline June 2008 ) {
    printcheck “name, amount”;
    print “file”;
    }

    I would already change the above code and add in a cashout var!!
    As you can see, one would have to think out all the variables before hand and the logic. I haven’t given it much thought because Im not going to be working on the receivership program, but I do know it’s a MySQL database . It would take a good day or two for the programmer to story board the logic diagram, and then a few hours to code it…

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  29. if ($age > 55 and Downline June 2008 ) {
    printcheck “name, amount”;
    print “file”;
    }

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  30. doesn’t let me write code… Oh well tried to fix the above and wouldn’t let me….

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  31. Steve: Your really making it alot harder than it is.

    No I’m not,

    what you’re doing is proposing a software program which simply doesn’t take into account that ASD was a fraud from day 1.

    That means that, BY LAW, the prosecution is REQUIRED to chase up every single transaction and recipient.

    Even if it weren’t required to do so by law, are you REALLY proposing that the prosecution simply draws a “line in the sand” on some arbitrary date and proceeds to send out money to whomever is on the current “list”

    I’m not “making” anything.

    What I posted is how it “is” in these matters.

    That’s what receivers or, in this case, “refunders” do.

    It may not suit new arrivals to the “scene” and it may not be perfect.

    But, that’s what has to happen and happens.

    Again, please don’t believe me,

    find the site for the respective receivers of 12DP and/or CEP, where you can follow the full, legally approved and clearly documented process, with every “i” dotted and “t” crossed.

    Here, I’ll even provide the links for you and any interested parties.

    All you and they have to do is, unlike your previous “research” habits, read EVERYTHING, not just what suits your purpose.

    This may be your first foray/s into the murky world of internet “business” Steve, but, based solely on the picture in your avatar, I’ve probably been doing “this” on AND offline for longer that you’ve been using the internet.

    Believe me, if there is a cheaper, quicker, more accurate AND fairer way to go through the process, far smarter and more educated people that you OR I have yet to find it.

    P.S. Remember, any such process would be required to suit the “Alasycias” of this story, while simultaneously satisfying Bowdoin supporters like “Kali” and “Barb McIntyre” as well as the various psuedo libertarian, anti authoritarians such as Michelle “it’s none of the governments business” Lentz and Jason “Why the Attorney General’s wrong” George.

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  32. Here you go:

    The whole 12 Daily Pro receivership from day 1: http://www.tlennonfor12dailypro.com/faq.html

    ditto for the CEP fiasco: http://www.wfperkinsforcep.com/

    If read entirely, they’ll answer every question you have about how a receivership is carried out in the case of an “autosurf” fraud.

    How the DoJ decides to proceed is entirely “new territory” but I can virtually guarantee the process won’t be more generous or carried out any less thoroughly. In fact, if I had to bet on it, I’d say the process will be MORE thorough with far more punitive outcomes.

    After all, the “task force” involved ALREADY contains representatives of the IRS, Secret Service and DoJ, all of whom have far greater powers than are available to a receiver.

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  33. All Im saying is to draft up a logic story board..
    Im sure you know that’s its nothing more than a CPM chart..
    Apply logic to it, and code it….

    Like for instance, give full refunds back to every single person that joined, say “two months before the seizure that never did cash out and only give them back their initial funding… period!

    Now, we have just eliminated about 20 percent of the database…

    Next, work on all the people that never cashed out and do not have a downline exceeding (5 people… “this will eliminate any major players”)give them back their initial funding… period

    Now we have just eliminated another 20 percent at least…

    The people that are left are members that cashed out before, and are not new to the program…

    Next, we could sort for the big winners, and big downlines…
    place them into separate database for clawbacks…
    Now we have already paid off about 40% of the ASD members in full. The kitty might be on the light side… This is where to start going after the winners and start the clawbacks…

    Take whatever is left in the kitty, and divide it amongst the remaing ASD members excluding winners, and cashouts exceeding initial investments..

    Do you see what I’m doing here? I’m simplifying the process…
    The receivorship will not do this. Why? because they wouldn’t make any money.. It’s all about money in this world, no matter if your a receiver, ponzi program, or government agency…

    It’s really kind of sad too because most any, and i mean any programmer could write the code in less than a day. But the receiver is give you the impression it’s a nightmare. It’s going to take months and months to sort through this mess.. Yeah Right!

    Oh course more time would have to be spent on the logic board besides what I have stated above.. this was just merely an example of how it can be accomplished……

    No matter what the problem is or the situation, it can be transferred into code…. I kid you not.

    I agree you might have 30 or even 50 cases, you might have to hand sort…. but get rid of the 99,950 first.

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  34. Err, Steve,

    either you’re incredibly naive or just playing at being naive, but, either way, you obviously have no idea about the difference between an official “audit” and generalized “bookkeeping”

    In a legitimate audit there is no “all you have to do is” or “just” involved.

    An audit requires that every single transaction by or for the audited entity is physically verified. Right down to the last receipt and petty cash voucher.

    For example, last year our (Australias’) largest home mortgage company was sold to Americas’ GE corp in a billion dollar + transaction.

    Prior to the sale, GE utilized a staff of around 200 for 12 months to carry out a “due diligence” audit.

    What’s more, that audit was carried out on a 100% legitimate, profitable business by another business which WANTED to complete the transaction.

    NOT into a fraudulently constructed, fraudulently run, HIGHLY illegal HYIP ponzi “autosurf” NON business designed solely to cheat, steal, lie, deceive, distract, hide and avoid at every junction.

    Not only that, the clients of the takeover target were ALSO audited, while many of the “clients” of an autosurf are self confessed criminals, thieves and liars. To say nothing of the fact many of the claimed 100,000 have gone to extraordinary lengths to remain “untraceable”

    If anyone had taken the suggestion of reading all of the documentation on the 12DP and CEP sites, they would also notice a large number of “members” who made false claims against the receivership/s, despite the fact they(the claimants) could be traced and possibly prosecuted.

    Add in how many “overseas” members and how many anonymous payment processors, all of whom are entitled to afforded the same entitlements as US citizens, and……. BINGO……there’s your 3 or 4 years.

    Oh, and let’s not forget the fact all of this must be done while simultaneously satisfying legal requirements, constitutional rights, angry “innocent” members, angry pseudo libertarian, anti “ebil Gubmnt” members AND without upsetting those who think the whole process can be simplified into a simple PERL programming exercise with subsequent cost and time savings.

    Let me see, would “Kali” “Barb McIntyre” “Jason George” and “Surfs’ Up” crew be satisfied with anything less than a full audit carried out with all bells and whistles ???

    I think not.

    The discussions could be extremely entertaining and, I’m sure, take up squillions of “column inches” on internet boards.

    Noe of which will alter, in any way, the fact “it” takes years and millions of dollars to do.

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  35. My point exactly!

    You see exactly how money and man hours are wasted! Too much control and working with an antiquated system. You and I both know I’m right.

    What’s the fair thing too do here? I’ll tell you the fair thing to do is give back 100% to all the members that joined 1 or 2 month prior to the government seizing ASD that didn’t receive any cash outs and had less than 5 members in their downline. That’s fair!

    Do you agree the above is the right thing to do? Yes or no
    I’ll prove my point to you step by step and walk you through it….

    and stop your incredibly naive crap… just get real about this

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  36. Steve,

    Steve: All Im saying is to draft up a logic story board..

    High GIGO factor that can’t be ignored, Steve. Andy already said he fudged the numbers, which means all sorts of things could have been fudged. Human sorting likely is required because of Garbage In, Garbage Out.

    It is a virtual certainty, for example, that some ASD members had more than one account, perhaps under multiple names of individuals in the same household or a closely related household or business. The Perl system you propose could result in people who gamed an already-gamed system getting disproportionate rewards.

    Another limitation of your system is that it might take the cross-checking of databases out of play. This is only a guess, but the government very well might want to check an ASD database against an AVG database, for example.

    It also might want to cross-check against any other database it has in its possession — a database of known tax deniers, for instance. You’ve noticed, of course, that some of the folks who filed pro se and engaged in the various letter-writing campaigns don’t believe the government could spell “C-A-T” if you spotted it the “C” and the “T.”

    I don’t know for certain, but I’d say the government would consider the needs of Florida widows who’d been dispossessed by their uplines and never joined, say, AVG, over the needs of schemers who had multiple accounts in ASD, moved right on over into AVG, sent letters to Congress in a bid to have the prosecutors investigated — and then started gumming up the legal proceedings with pro se filings that mostly are political statements, rather than documents that have a prayer of withstanding judicial scrutiny.

    This crime — though not limited to Florida — caused a lot of damage in the state, which has a high concentration of senior citizens and one of the highest foreclosure rates in the United States. I do believe the government is well aware of this and will seek a restitution process that is as fair to seniors as it possibly can be. There is no way to make it perfect, but various sorting mechanisms can be employed to separate the money from the hands of criminals and put as much as possible back into the hands of the most vulnerable victims.

    You’ve noticed, of course, that the judge in this case took the time in November to address the former ASD employees and the people of Quincy who lost jobs as a result of this fiasco. And you’ve also noticed that she writes in plain language — the type of language a man on the street can understand if he is provided the documentation.

    This same judge also has issued rulings favorable to ASD — the granting of the evidentiary hearing in the interests of justice, for example. Judge Collyer also held the prosecutors’ feet to the fire when it came to answering the pro se filings and Andy’s drivel. She also exercised enormous patience, giving Andy the widest berth possible when he re-filed for $93 million, hired a new attorney and then did not follow-up with his initial pleadings.

    This same judge once again took the time to speak in a very even-handed way through her rulings. It was the same judge accused of operating a “Kangaroo Court” and being guilty of crimes by people who are filing political statements, not persuasive legal documents.

    I remember last fall reading an email that said this judge was “brainless” and “on the take” if she ruled against ASD at the evidentiary hearing. Some of the same people circulated prayers that called for the prosecutors to be struck dead from the high heavens.

    These approaches sure didn’t help the most vulnerable victims of ASD. Surely you remember the bid by some of the ASD advocates to see if they could get AARP to advocate on behalf of a Ponzi scheme that fleeced senior citizens.

    Within a few months, AARP announced it was working with the attorney general of Florida to tighten securities and banking regulations to take tools away from the schemers. It was the same attorney general that some of the ASD advocates said should be charged with Deceptive Business Practices for daring to suggest anything was wrong with ASD.

    Lots of this stuff wouldn’t sell as pulp fiction; it simply strains credulity to a point where ordinary people would have trouble suspending their disbelief — and yet it continues, with Grandma wondering if she really will have to get a job at age 85 to keep food in the cupboard because Junior put her in ASD.

    Remember the Praebius venture? How convenient to announce an unverifiable, $200 million deal while you’re awaiting a ruling from a federal judge in a case in which external revenue streams are a factor.

    And how about Andy’s announcement that Ponzi allegations had been dropped in Florida? People raced to the forums to pass along the good news, and the office of the Florida attorney general ended up making a statement that what Andy had told the troops was false.

    The “gift” of VOIP phone service for $20 a month when thousands and thousands of members had just been lied to?

    Court records indicate ASD/Andy had at least $4 million offshore.

    It’s not a stretch to say that lots of Grandmas hope they’ll see some of it because Junior was up to no good again.

    Patrick

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  37. Steve: Do you agree the above is the right thing to do? Yes or no
    I’ll prove my point to you step by step and walk you through it….

    and stop your incredibly naive crap… just get real about this

    Oh right, “stop your incredibly naive crap” while suggesting we engage in meaningful discourse ????

    And, no, I most certainly do NOT agree the “above” is the “fair” thing to do, not for one single, solitary second.

    HeHe, in fact, I think your post is hilarious and illustrates PERFECTLY why some people fall for these frauds and even MORE perfectly why a full audit is necessary.

    Now, where DID I put my copy of “The Ugly American” and why did it suddenly come to mind so many years after I first read it.

    “Get real” indeed.

    Man, that’s the best laugh I’ve had this year.

    Imagine, after all these years and all this experience, being told to “get real” by some loudmouth punk**s self confessed HYIP ponzi promoter who has NO idea of my background.

    How excellent.

    I’ll be using this one for years and years.

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  38. LRM and Patrick,

    Steve’s right in that this whole process could be radically streamlined in the manner in which he suggests. It wouldn’t be fair or legal however…..just arbitrary. Further, I think the math would show that even if one were to try to provide 100% restitution to the folks who joined in the last 2 months that there wouldn’t be enough funds to do so. How’d you like to be the member who joined 2 months and one day from the end, and get nothing, when the person (whom you ay have recruited) who joined the next day got 100%? etc., etc., etc.

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  39. Let’s not forget the “Truth Commission” of Sen. Leahy, where the gang was going to try to get the Senator to endorse Ponzi schemes. Further back, it was the “evil government of President Bush.” They were just waiting for the new administration, because surely President Obama would come in, clean house in the AG’s office, and reinstate the ASD Ponzi scheme. One letter writer, “Roger Gillem” at Surf’s Up, claimed that his letter HAD been read by President Obama and that the president knew of all of illegal actions of the AG against ASD and would take care of it. Sheesh! Somehow those folks believe that on a macro (national) scale the ASD case is important. Not…..although to many individual victims, it is very important.

    admin: ….. Surely you remember the bid by some of the ASD advocates to see if they could get AARP to advocate on behalf of a Ponzi scheme that fleeced senior citizens. Patrick

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  40. Entertained: How’d you like to be the member who joined 2 months and one day from the end, and get nothing, when the person (whom you ay have recruited) who joined the next day got 100%? etc., etc., etc.

    Better still,

    how’d Steve like to be the innocent but naive member who joined 2 months and 1 day from the end, when he found out that 1000 “in the know” playas had opened accounts on day 59 via unverifiable proxy addresses in Lithuania or Russia.

    Don’t think it could happen ???

    Stick around, folks, and be prepared to be shocked and amazed as this sorry saga unfolds.

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  41. Entertained: joe doesn’t care that the vast majority of people wind up losing — he has posted as much. He only cares if he is successful in stealing from others, including the elderly.

    especially the elderly, it’s usually easier.

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  42. joe, you are really sick & twisted. Your mother must be so proud.

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  43. Sorry Steve,

    One doesnt need to be a mathematician to see that your suggestions only work if the entire data held on the ASD data base and all the members claims are one hundred per cent reliable. As we now know, it is full of inconsistancies and not all the members are honest, so it will need to have every detail cross checked and verified by a human being who can pick up dulicate accounts and tricks and traps in a way a computer cannot..

    Even then, who is to chose the criteria.

    The time criteria has already been dealt with above as unrealistic. So what about age? There are people in need under 55 and con men and woman over 55. Andy was 74 I seem to recall and you forgot the disabled. And what about people with large families of school age?

    Entertained and LRM are right on this one and both ahve considerable experience in this field. If there was a simpler system, the Government would be using it already, to save their valuable manpower and underfunded departments unnecesary work.

    I dont see why you have to insult people who disagree with you here – they give their reasons and back them up with data.

    5 minutes ago you were promoting some of these schemes. Now you say you have had a change of heart and think they are all ponzis. First of all we need time to get used to the “new Steve”.

    What I am finding hard to recononcile is the comment you made above

    “When did I ever say, I believed or disbelieved in the mathematics behind ASD or for that matter any of the program? I never did..” with the fact that you promoted them. That is pretty calculating then, if you promoted programmes after ASD without even being sure of the maths.

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  44. alasycia ,

    “The time criteria has already been dealt with above as unrealistic. So what about age? There are people in need under 55 and con men and woman over 55. Andy was 74 I seem to recall and you forgot the disabled. And what about people with large families of school age?”

    People under 55 can rebuild their lives. At least try to.. The con men over 55 would only make it through if he has never cashed out, (had fewer than 5 downline members (not much of a con man)). If Andy is in the Database, never cashed out, and has fewer than 5 in his downline, we would make an exception to the rule.I’m sorry about the disabled, but only going by information obtained in the database..

    People with large families of school age? Only people above the age of 18 would be able to benefit. That’s the same scenerio of a kid sneaking into a casino in Lost Wages, I mean Las Vegas.. The money would be returned to the ASD membership funds…

    We don’t have to keep talking about this.. It was merely an Idea,, but yes alasycia any problem you can think of can be written into code…Every single situation needs to be considered..The longest and hardest part would be the the logic.. Just like we are doing here!

    If they ever made a program for releasing victims monies, it could be tweaked with time and case..

    BTW Patrick, thanks for post.. refreshed the memory

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  45. Cathy G.: joe, you are really sick & twisted. Your mother must be so proud.

    Yeah she is and I’ll tell you she’s still pretty smart, I figured she’d be an easy mark but she was on to me.

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  46. alasycia,

    “5 minutes ago you were promoting some of these schemes. Now you say you have had a change of heart and think they are all ponzis. First of all we need time to get used to the “new Steve”.”

    I never said I changed my heart.. You did.. There is no new Steve. I remain the same to myself, it’s you that is seeing the new Steve, not me… You have changed. You have changed your outlook upon me.. It’s you that have changed alasycia.

    “I dont see why you have to insult people who disagree with you here – they give their reasons and back them up with data.”

    It’s not that they disagree with me that upsets me. I could care less if anyone of you beleives in anything I say. I say it because I think you might. It’s the hatred, the insults, and the snide remarks I don’t take too kindly too… but then maybe, you can see it because your at their same level… My point, talk nice to me, I talk nice to you, shout at me, I shout at you.. Tit for tat

    “If there was a simpler system, the Government would be using it already, to save their valuable manpower and underfunded departments unnecesary work.”

    You are so wrong! The government is a snail!! Look at Blue cross and Medicare. they are still using a triplicate system, and it took them 20 years later to reanalyzed the situation and they are finally thinking about initiating software..
    http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS129938+27-Feb-2009+BW20090227

    “When did I ever say, I believed or disbelieved in the mathematics behind ASD or for that matter any of the program? I never did..” with the fact that you promoted them. That is pretty calculating then, if you promoted programmes after ASD without even being sure of the maths.”

    I do not inspect everything I do in life. When I purchase a car, I don’t flip out my calculator and check to see if they taxed me correctly… or see if i really get 23 Miles Per Gallon, or maybe check the Gas station pump and see if i really am getting my correct gallon. I could care less. When I purchase something, it’s for my enjoyment… Maybe when you purchase a food, your like one of those radicals, that will flip through every coupon book to see if you can save ten cents… I hate coupons myself and when I see a person in front of me pull out hundreds from her purse, I go to another check out line…

    I have never truly analyzed any program. And I never will. You can count on that!

    My Point: People that inspect things to closely, dan’t have much of a life. I’m not being mean, but how can you enjoying you if you have to be on guard 24-7? You should learn to relax.. Maybe join a spa. Its a proven fact people with less stress live longer…

    Wouldn’t you like to have a nice long stress free life?

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  47. The discussion seems to have TOTALLY centered around ASD. My funds were in Golden Panda; which only lasted 8 days TOTAL. How should refunds be handled in this case?

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  48. alasycia: Entertained and LRM are right on this one and both ahve considerable experience in this field. If there was a simpler system, the Government would be using it already, to save their valuable manpower and underfunded departments unnecesary work.

    Which is exactly why I suggest Steve shouldn’t believe any one of us on this.

    Instead he should run, not walk, to the nearest phone, put in a call to the DoJ and offer to do the whole job for half the price and in a tenth of the time.

    Who wouldn’t jump at the chance of such a deal ???

    Can you imagine ???

    There’d be receivers, governments and “victims” knocking down Steves’ doors to utilize his skills in next to no time.

    We Patrick Pretty Posters could spend the rest of our lives boring people with endless tales of how we were there at the birth of this wonderous new way of dealing with HYIP ponzi fraud.

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  49. littleroundman: Patrick Pretty Posters

    Awfully aseptic alliteration, LRM. :-)

    Patrick

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  50. admin:

    littleroundman: Patrick Pretty Posters

    Awfully aseptic alliteration, LRM.
    Patrick

    Or perhaps Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters Painfully Puking Pointless Pith. I kinda like that better.

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  51. And for people with food allergies, Steve, inspecting everything carefully can mean the difference between life and death.

    Think of how someone with a serious peanut allergy has to shop. Or someone who lacks an enzyme that detoxifies a common substance; I have a friend whose body can’t deal with sucralose (Splenda) in even tiny amounts.

    Now what would you do if your finances were similarly critical to your life? Would you still not inspect every program carefully? Or would you end up regularly in the emergency room, like this blog forum, gasping for air?

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  52. joe:

    Or perhaps Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters Painfully Puking Pointless Pith. I kinda like that better.

    You’re completely right, joe,

    In fact, I could expand it to make it: “Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters Painfully Puking Pointless Pith Pertaining to Puerile Ponzi Promoters and Persistent Ponzi Pimps.

    And guess what:

    1) ASD would still be an illegal HYIP ponzi fraud which, by the way, has collapsed, Precisely as Predicted by Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters
    2) AVG would still be an illegal HYIP ponzi fraud which, by the way, has collapsed, as Predicted by Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters
    3) BAS would still be an illegal HYIP ponzi fraud which, by the way, has collapsed, Precisely as Predicted by Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters.

      (Quote)

  53. littleroundman: 2) AVG would still be an illegal HYIP ponzi fraud which, by the way, has collapsed, as Predicted by Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters
    3) BAS would still be an illegal HYIP ponzi fraud which, by the way, has collapsed, Precisely as Predicted by Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters.

    Pathetic Patrick Pretty Posters Pretending to Propose these Ponzi’s have petered out. Perfectly Pissed when Pointed out that these two’s time is not Past. Perfectly Poignant I Propose. By the way scooter theres a big difference between these and hyip’s read up PPPussy.

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  54. joe: By the way scooter theres a big difference between these and hyip’s read up PPPussy.

    Err,

    not according to the relevant statutes and, more particularly, in this case, Judge Collyer.

    I can understand the confusion, but I would counsel anyone who remains unconvinced to read and at least attempt to comprehend what Judge Collyer meant when she says: “Plaintiff/s have failed to demonstrate any MATERIAL difference………….”

    To use more common, less legalistic expressions:

    “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”

    “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck”

    “You cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear”

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  55. In a purely technical sense, an audit does not look at or verify individual transactions, audits look at sample transactions from the population to verify the SYSTEM is good, but any transactions looked at are due to luck in random selection. Audits classify various systems as effectively controlled or unefectively controlled. Audits, in short, are a test of whether an entity HAS effective control systems, and if the entity is FOLLOWING the procedures of their internal control systems. When every single transaction is checked, it is almost always in a criminal investigation, or when a bad thing has happened to the records of individual accounts. This is very rare, and is usually referred to as a reconstruction or a validation. One of the most important characteristics of an audit is that it is and MUST BE performed by an unrelated party.

    As to refunds, if this was an SEC case with a receiver, law dictates that all proceeds after expenses,be divided up pro rata to all qualified beneficiaries. Or plainly, pay the receiver, then divide the rest equally. But since this isn’t be handled by anyone with fiduciary responsibility, the Justice Department is free to refund any amounts as they see fit, or not at all, actually. And by strict letter of the law, anyone with ANY downline should be excluded, anyone who before or since has joined one of these scams should be excluded, anyone who promoted should be excluded. I don’t think they’ll end up doing it that way, but if it were me, I honestly would. A message has to be sent, playing ponzi schemes is not OK, and as often as it happens, when the government steps in, everyone, or nearly everyone, gets hurt. A few would suffer now, but in the long run the publicity would stop the stealing.

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  56. LRM: Little “joe” is just PO’d that we were right about ASD, AVGA, AGW, and BAS. Name-calling is all he has left; and he is not even good at that. I know he thinks he is witty, but he is just witless. He hasn’t been right about anything. He can’t even be a legend in his own mind.

    My dad always told me never to argue with a fool. They drag you down to their level, and to an outsider they might not be able to tell the difference.

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  57. Which, I guess is why the prosecution team removed any possibility of confusion as to definition and usage of the term “Ponzi” by purposely avoiding going down the securities/SEC route, and instead clearly defining the charges as being:

    1) Wire fraud
    2) Money laundering
    3) Conspiracy to commit wire fraud
    4) Conspiracy to commit money laundering

    While it may be amusing to speculate on whether a HYIP ponzi “autosurf” meets some posters’ arbitrary definition of the word “ponzi”and while it may continue to fill internet forums with speculation for years to come, such discussions are entirely irrelevant to the current circumstances.

    IM(very)HO it is not unreasonable to assume the prosecution have been aware of the endless discussions in, on and around the very same definition/s following previous “autosurf” prosecutions and have altered their approach accordingly.

    Bush lawyers and HYIP ponzi “autosurf” fraud apologists can speculate to their hearts’ content, their rantings make not the slightest bit of difference to what’s ACTUALLY happening.

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  58. Lynndel Edgington: LRM:Little “joe” is just PO’d that we were right about ASD, AVGA, AGW, and BAS.Name-calling is all he has left; and he is not even good at that.I know he thinks he is witty, but he is just witless.He hasn’t been right about anything.He can’t even be a legend in his own mind.My dad always told me never to argue with a fool.They drag you down to their level, and to an outsider they might not be able to tell the difference.

    That’s true so why do I do it? witless? I’ve already pulled the curtain back on you and exposed someone who sounded half intelligent but obviously was just a little good at faking it. I haven’t been right about anything? I haven’t said anything one way or the other about anything. I’m just doing what everyone is doing which is speculating. Exceptabout AVGA. Actually everything I’ve said about AVGA is right and that’s really the only thing I’m posting about. I really could care less about ASD I didn’t lose anything, I wasn’t in it. On this little blog I am your authority on AVGA and I honestly could give a damn if you believe me or not. I hear the latest news and 99% of it you won’t see anywhere. Most members don’t know what I know. Maybe in time but not yet. No, Im not even a founder just well connected. You need to know something skippy I’m your man and if I can answer it I will but your the last people I would arm with anything, hell as it is you take little speculative bits and pieces and turn it into today’s headlines. Of course me being the kind of guy I am maybe I could sell you some info. You would know it’s true too by what I told you so it would be good info. I could give you a field day of info you would be drooling over PP.

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  59. As has been pointed out before, one good thing about being a HYIP ponzi autosurf”naysayer” is knowing you are never wrong in predicting the inevitable.

    There are a couple of downsides, however:

    1) Sometimes having to wait 80 or 90 days for the “proof” to arrive, rather than the “normal” 20 or 30 days.

    2) When the inevitable happens and the HYIP ponzi autosurf collapses naturally, or is busted by the authorities, the cheerleaders disappear, never to be seen again (well, at least not with the same name)

    Oh, to have a dollar for every time a cheerleader has flung puerile insults while simultaneously claiming the HYIP ponzi dujour is “the one”

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  60. joe,

    I think you’re 100% correct in this comment. The folks that you have victimized in AVG do nt yet know that this is an illegal enterprise, but you surely do. They will nknow shortly. Further, you surely know that the HArris’s and the rest of you insiders are nearing the end of your plans to complete the theft from the members. The members don’t know that yet (although they suspect….) but they will shortly. Truer words you’ve never uttered….

    joe: ….. I hear the latest news and 99% of it you won’t see anywhere. Most members don’t know what I know. Maybe in time but not yet. …..

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  61. Entertained: joe,I think you’re 100% correct in this comment.The folks that you have victimized in AVG do nt yet know that this is an illegal enterprise, but you surely do.They will nknow shortly.Further, you surely know that the HArris’s and the rest of you insiders are nearing the end of your plans to complete the theft from the members.The members don’t know that yet (although they suspect….) but they will shortly.Truer words you’ve never uttered….

    joe: ….. I hear the latest news and 99% of it you won’t see anywhere. Most members don’t know what I know. Maybe in time but not yet. …..

    Actually we already have the money so that part is done. I was referring to the info on what’s next.

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  62. DrJim: The discussion seems to have TOTALLY centered around ASD. My funds were in Golden Panda; which only lasted 8 days TOTAL. How should refunds be handled in this case?

    Because Golden Panda never operated long enough to pay anyone, immediate refunds should be issued minus cost. At least 90% refunds should be issued. I think 1.4 million would cover costs. I’m sure they will automate this process!

    How many members where in GP?

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  63. Grosser Than Thou: And for people with food allergies, Steve, inspecting everything carefully can mean the difference between life and death.Think of how someone with a serious peanut allergy has to shop. Or someone who lacks an enzyme that detoxifies a common substance; I have a friend whose body can’t deal with sucralose (Splenda) in even tiny amounts.Now what would you do if your finances were similarly critical to your life? Would you still not inspect every program carefully? Or would you end up regularly in the emergency room, like this blog forum, gasping for air?

    I was expressing a general point of being obsessed with chronic test syndrome, not at item specifics.

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  64. Entertained: LRM and Patrick,Steve’s right in that this whole process could be radically streamlined in the manner in which he suggests. It wouldn’t be fair or legal however…..just arbitrary. Further, I think the math would show that even if one were to try to provide 100% restitution to the folks who joined in the last 2 months that there wouldn’t be enough funds to do so. How’d you like to be the member who joined 2 months and one day from the end, and get nothing, when the person (whom you ay have recruited) who joined the next day got 100%? etc., etc., etc.

    Hi Entertained,

    The two months could be changed to 1 month.. like i said before, this was just an Idea… but you do see how talking openly about helps model the logic…

      (Quote)

  65. littleroundman,

    “This may be your first foray/s into the murky world of internet “business” Steve, but, based solely on the picture in your avatar, I’ve probably been doing “this” on AND offline for longer that you’ve been using the internet.”

    Iv’e been on the internet since 1995. I’m 48 years old BTW

      (Quote)

  66. Steve: Iv’e been on the internet since 1995. I’m 48 years old BTW

    HeHe, TOLD YA !

    Bl***y whippersnapper.

      (Quote)

  67. littleroundman:

    Steve: Iv’e been on the internet since 1995. I’m 48 years old BTW

    HeHe, TOLD YA !Bl***y whippersnapper.

    Did I ever question you though is the problem…
    Thats like me stating this to you:

    Based upon handle, your probably fat and short…
    then after you tell me your height and weight, i reply with:

    TOLD YA !

    Zero points for deductions, but one point for not being rude this time.

      (Quote)

  68. joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: LRM:Little “joe” is just PO’d that we were right about ASD, AVGA, AGW, and BAS.Name-calling is all he has left; and he is not even good at that.I know he thinks he is witty, but he is just witless.He hasn’t been right about anything.He can’t even be a legend in his own mind.My dad always told me never to argue with a fool.They drag you down to their level, and to an outsider they might not be able to tell the difference.

    That’s true so why do I do it? witless? I’ve already pulled the curtain back on you and exposed someone who sounded half intelligent but obviously was just a little good at faking it. I haven’t been right about anything? I haven’t said anything one way or the other about anything. I’m just doing what everyone is doing which is speculating. Exceptabout AVGA. Actually everything I’ve said about AVGA is right and that’s really the only thing I’m posting about. I really could care less about ASD I didn’t lose anything, I wasn’t in it. On this little blog I am your authority on AVGA and I honestly could give a damn if you believe me or not. I hear the latest news and 99% of it you won’t see anywhere. Most members don’t know what I know. Maybe in time but not yet. No, Im not even a founder just well connected. You need to know something skippy I’m your man and if I can answer it I will but your the last people I would arm with anything, hell as it is you take little speculative bits and pieces and turn it into today’s headlines. Of course me being the kind of guy I am maybe I could sell you some info. You would know it’s true too by what I told you so it would be good info. I could give you a field day of info you would be drooling over PP.

    The only thing you have exposed is you are a scammer and a liar. Guess you have to defend the family though. You can’t even tell when you were being played, and played you were. Since you like to brag about what all you “know” about what is going to happen with AVGA in the future, you just might get your chance to do so to some people who would love to reach out and touch you.

      (Quote)

  69. Lynndel Edgington:

    joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: LRM:Little “joe” is just PO’d that we were right about ASD, AVGA, AGW, and BAS.Name-calling is all he has left; and he is not even good at that.I know he thinks he is witty, but he is just witless.He hasn’t been right about anything.He can’t even be a legend in his own mind.My dad always told me never to argue with a fool.They drag you down to their level, and to an outsider they might not be able to tell the difference.

    That’s true so why do I do it? witless? I’ve already pulled the curtain back on you and exposed someone who sounded half intelligent but obviously was just a little good at faking it. I haven’t been right about anything? I haven’t said anything one way or the other about anything. I’m just doing what everyone is doing which is speculating. Exceptabout AVGA. Actually everything I’ve said about AVGA is right and that’s really the only thing I’m posting about. I really could care less about ASD I didn’t lose anything, I wasn’t in it. On this little blog I am your authority on AVGA and I honestly could give a damn if you believe me or not. I hear the latest news and 99% of it you won’t see anywhere. Most members don’t know what I know. Maybe in time but not yet. No, Im not even a founder just well connected. You need to know something skippy I’m your man and if I can answer it I will but your the last people I would arm with anything, hell as it is you take little speculative bits and pieces and turn it into today’s headlines. Of course me being the kind of guy I am maybe I could sell you some info. You would know it’s true too by what I told you so it would be good info. I could give you a field day of info you would be drooling over PP.

    The only thing you have exposed is you are a scammer and a liar.Guess you have to defend the family though.You can’t even tell when you were being played, and played you were.Since you like to brag about what all you “know” about what is going to happen with AVGA in the future, you just might get your chance to do so to some people who would love to reach out and touch you.

    I don’t think I’m your type.

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