DID SURF FIRM JUST MAKE HISTORY? AdViewGlobal Says It Filed State, Federal Complaints About $2.7 Million Theft; Surf Wants New CFO, Compliance Officer, Department Managers; Asks Members To Keep Surfing

UPDATED 12:03 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) One day after AdSurfDaily Inc. revealed in court filings that it was negotiating with federal prosecutors, the AdViewGlobal (AVG) autosurf announced it had been the victim of a $2.7 million theft.

AVG, which purports to be headquartered in Uruguay, said it reported the theft to state and federal authorities. If confirmed, it may mark the first time in history that a surf filed such a report. Autosurfs frequently are associated with Ponzi schemes and the sale of unregistered securities.

“Legal complaints have been filed in both cases and are currently being pursued by law enforcement authorities at both the state and federal levels,” AVG said in an announcement to members.

It was not immediately clear if the surf was conceding it was headquartered in the United States, rather than Uruguay. The surf did not identify the agencies to which it had reported the alleged theft.

AVG identified two suspects, saying they once were affiliated with the eWalletPlus payment processor. Some members had been clamoring for the surf to name suspects.

“We’ve been reluctant to share this information with you, because we were under the impression that the money would be returned within a fairly brief period of time. In the past 24 hours, however, we’ve learned that it could take 6 months to a year to get the money back to us,” AVG said.

AVG did not say how it got the impression that the money would be returned in “a fairly brief period of time.” Nor did it reveal how it learned it could take up to a year to recover the money or that the funds even were recoverable.

Federal prosecutors said in December that ASD President Andy Bowdoin never reported a $1 million theft at the purported hands of “Russian” hackers. The allegation is contained in a Dec. 19 forfeiture complaint that names George and Judy Harris as beneficiaries of illegal conduct by ASD.

Today is the one-year anniversary of the formal seizure of tens of millions of dollars from ASD by the U.S. Secret Service.

George Harris is Andy Bowdoin’s stepson; Judy Harris is the wife of George Harris. AVG announced last month that George and Judy Harris owned AVG. Since that time, a Pinksheet stock known as Vana Blue (VBLU.PK), which says it owns Karveck International and the associated eWalletPlus payment processor, has clouded the issue of what individual or company actually owns AVG.

In today’s announcement, AVG did not say if George or Judy Harris — or another management employee — contacted authorities to report the alleged theft.

AVG did say it was seeking a new chief financial officer, compliance officer and department heads for public relations, customer service and new projects. The surf did not say whether it had fired employees who held those jobs previously.

“We’re undergoing a complete overhaul of all management positions and procedural systems,” AVG said. The surf added that it was recruiting from within and that applicants are required “to sign a confidentiality agreement that will be strictly enforced.”

The surf did not say whether the successful candidates would be required to move to Uruguay.

AVG, which announced June 25 that it was suspending member cashouts and making an 80/20 program mandatory if and when payouts resume, said today that it was “evaluating the extent to which the inflated page impressions amassed by some members created artificial cash balances.”

Members said AVG’s frequent use of 200-percent, matching bonus programs for both recruits and sponsors — coupled with an in-house, member-to-member cash button — led to some downline groups and individuals owning millions of page impressions and creating untenable liabilities for the surf.

How AVG intends to deal with the liabilities it created through unchecked bonuses and purported abuse of the cash button is not clear. By suspending payouts June 25, the surf exercised its version of a “rebates aren’t guaranteed” clause.

Some members said they will not surf until cashouts resume because each advertisement AVG displays erodes profitability for individual members.

“We sincerely hope that you’ll continue to support us . . . and keep on surfing! AVG said today.

See July 23 story.

See July 27 story.

About the Author

98 Responses to “DID SURF FIRM JUST MAKE HISTORY? AdViewGlobal Says It Filed State, Federal Complaints About $2.7 Million Theft; Surf Wants New CFO, Compliance Officer, Department Managers; Asks Members To Keep Surfing”

  1. Patrick, maybe it’s just me, but does it seem that the story keeps changing? First it was members questionable use of the transfer between accounts buttons thereby over-inflating their balances, and now it’s embezzlement?

    Who would have even expected that money would go missing from something Andy and family were controlling?

      (Quote)

  2. Hm, they filed State and Federal complaints? Aren’t they a non-US company so they can dodge the rules here, but now they want the protection? You can’t have it both ways, AVGA!!

      (Quote)

  3. Any reason for not naming the previous owner of eWallet Plus, Mike A, and Alan M? Just curious.. I see Ad View Global states the names…

    I can’t believe they dirty bastards got away with 2.7 Million dollars! Maybe they are just naming Mike A and Alan M as the fall guys and this why you didn’t mention the names huh?

    Steve

      (Quote)

  4. First they blame the over paying members, then they blame the fraudulent members, then they blame Donna Rougeau, now they are blaming the eWallet people, Mike Austin and Alan Minto. Who are they going to blame next? The Tooth Fairy?

    If federal complaints have been filed, it would be interesting to know under which jurisdiction they have been filed in! My guess is in no jurisdiction and we are watching yet another bluff by the AVGA gang.

    And yez Steve, maybe the two eWallet guys have absolutely nothing to do with this. Remember the Russian hackers who were not prosecuted? It is easier to make false claims that tell the truth and admit to scamming their members

      (Quote)

  5. I confess, I did it.

      (Quote)

  6. I know, Bob Guenther told me.

      (Quote)

  7. Steve Watt: Any reason for not naming the previous owner of eWallet Plus, Mike A, andAlan M?Just curious.. I see Ad View Global states the names…I can’t believe they dirty bastards got away with 2.7 Million dollars!Maybe they are just naming Mike A and Alan M as the fall guys and this why you didn’t mention the names huh?Steve

    Well I knew about the Ewallet theft a long time ago so it’s true. I never mentioned it here because I didn’t want to give that to you but AVGA doesn’t seem to care now. I happen to know it for a fact. Here’s something for you, the people trying to run AVGA now are actually comprised of the Mod’s from the forum, one of which wasn’t looking too good in the audit. Like i have always said, legit, not legit, whatever, the Harris’s sure need real management. They should look to the model of one of the other surfs out there which is doing phenomenally well, in fact i’m surprised your not focused on them but then again it’s going well and everyone is making money so you can’t say much can you? Anyway I just gave you some info so don’t say I never gave you anything.

      (Quote)

  8. I have to ask, joe, what makes you think this other fantastic autosurf is not being looked at that you claim is going gang busters? Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean that nothing is being done. Why would anyone broadcast it here or anywhere else for that matter?

    As for you other “news,” I was hoping you would bring something to the table that was new, instead of your old “news.”

      (Quote)

  9. joe:

    Steve Watt: Any reason for not naming the previous owner of eWallet Plus, Mike A, andAlan M?Just curious.. I see Ad View Global states the names…I can’t believe they dirty bastards got away with 2.7 Million dollars!Maybe they are just naming Mike A and Alan M as the fall guys and this why you didn’t mention the names huh?Steve

    Well I knew about the Ewallet theft a long time ago so it’s true. I never mentioned it here because I didn’t want to give that to you but AVGA doesn’t seem to care now. I happen to know it for a fact. Here’s something for you, the people trying to run AVGA now are actually comprised of the Mod’s from the forum, one of which wasn’t looking too good in the audit. Like i have always said, legit, not legit, whatever, the Harris’s sure need real management. They should look to the model of one of the other surfs out there which is doing phenomenally well, in fact i’m surprised your not focused on them but then again it’s going well and everyone is making money so you can’t say much can you? Anyway I just gave you some info so don’t say I never gave you anything.

    But joe;
    I remind you again that because of your self-declared lack of integrity you have no credibility here.

    “…You want to know the real truth, I could give a sh*t less if it’s legal or not…”

    – AVGA defender, “joe” on Patrick Pretty’s blog

    http://patrickpretty.com/2009/07/06/is-anybody-home-at-adviewglobal

      (Quote)

  10. Lynndel Edgington: I have to ask, joe, what makes you think this other fantastic autosurf is not being looked at that you claim is going gang busters?Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean that nothing is being done.Why would anyone broadcast it here or anywhere else for that matter?As for you other “news,” I was hoping you would bring something to the table that was new, instead of your old “news.”

    Im talking about the fact that you aren’t bashing the other one. As far as my news, I know darn well you didn’t know who was running AVGA so it is new to you. No one has said it before, especially the part about one of them being fraudulent in the audit.

      (Quote)

  11. Steve,

    Steve Watt: Any reason for not naming the previous owner of eWallet Plus

    It is because mulitiple entities have purported to own eWalletPlus this year alone. The name has been associated with AVG, Vana Blue, TMS Corporation and TMS Association in various writings, and the timing of the ownership and/or ownership transition is unclear.

    Adding to the thicket is an entity known as TMS Corp. USA LLC, which is registered in Nevada and lists Gary D. Talbert of 2601 E Thomas Rd, Ste 220-A Phoenix, AZ 85016, as its manager. A company by the same name also is listed as a foreign LLC in Arizona, with Gary D. Talbert of 13. S. Calhoun Street, P.O. Box 109, Quincy, FL 32351, as its manager.

    So, yes, ASD’s allegedly bogus address and Talbert’s name appear in public filings associated with the TMS name.

    AVG’s announcement today was typically vague — it did not say when the alleged theft occurred, for example. It also said “we’ve been informed that a substantial amount of association money was embezzled” — but it did not say who informed AVG of the alleged theft.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  12. Hi Don,

    Don: Patrick, maybe it’s just me, but does it seem that the story keeps changing? First it was members questionable use of the transfer between accounts buttons thereby over-inflating their balances, and now it’s embezzlement?

    Today a firm with close ties to an alleged Ponzi scheme — and a firm that itself uses a business model associated with Ponzi schemes — says it reported a $2.7 million theft to state and federal authorities.

    That’s interesting to beat the band, as is the question you asked above about changing stories.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  13. Perhaps AVGA is confident that it is not doing anything illegal. And why do they have to tell anyone anything, especially here, where no matter what they do, they are condemned. The more things change…

      (Quote)

  14. Reported a $2.7 million theft to state and federal authorities.

    OMG, little joe and Correction, you actually believe this kool-aid tribe?

      (Quote)

  15. There’s a “Mike Austin” who seems to have been involved with something called lyfecard.com, which seems to have gone under other names – PEAK XV CARD PROGRAMS, PINPAY.net, Mypinpay.com, ACCENT.com. This was back in 2006. I have no idea what happened to these operations, or if it is the same person.

      (Quote)

  16. Ah, wait a minute, found the link, it is the same person.
    http://www.bizwiz.com/cgi-bin/bizxsrch.pl?terms=AROPA13zWAmG.AR2Psm9P4SVAQARbIaLz6QveyA

    EWalletPlus.com :: Free member to member and pay transfers

    Ewalletplus is a digital online interface for your financial management and banking needs with a debit card. Payroll pay transfer and direct deposit capable. Available only in the United States.

    http://www.ewalletplus.com

    Contact:
    Michael Austin
    President
    Lyfe Card Services
    4757 E Greenway Rd. Ste.107B-105
    Phoenix, AZ 85032
    United States

      (Quote)

  17. Tony,

    The street address listed above — 4757 E Greenway Rd. Ste.107B-105
    Phoenix, AZ 85032 — is the same street address Vana Blue uses in Phoenix.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  18. joe:

    Lynndel Edgington: I have to ask, joe, what makes you think this other fantastic autosurf is not being looked at that you claim is going gang busters?Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean that nothing is being done.Why would anyone broadcast it here or anywhere else for that matter?As for you other “news,” I was hoping you would bring something to the table that was new, instead of your old “news.”

    Im talking about the fact that you aren’t bashing the other one. As far as my news, I know darn well you didn’t know who was running AVGA so it is new to you. No one has said it before, especially the part about one of them being fraudulent in the audit.

    Just because it was not said on an open forum does not mean this information was not known. But AVG has a real problem on its hands. First they said it was members who were abusing the “button” that was inflating page impressions (read investment), or whatever name you want to call it, which in turn gave them far more payout than necessary. Then it was E-wallet’s fault. They are registered in Uruguay, but want the Feds to come to their aid, but registered offshore to avoid the Feds having any jurisdiction over them (hard to keep the stories straight huh), but will not state which “authorities” this has been reported too. Wonder what AVG would do if the U.S. agencies they reported this too told them to contact the Uruguay authorities with their complaint? Would be poetic justice, don’t you think?

    Now there is a whole lot more I could point out with the vague generalities of this “update” put out by AVG, but this should suffice for now, unless you would like for me to list more.

    In short, as the Indians used to say, AVG speaks with forked tongue. It is almost like they put out whatever they think the members will believe without any regard to what is really happening; which they have not addressed at all. Keep smoking or drinking whatever it is you’re doing, because if you stop you might have to wake up and face reality.

    As I said, I thought you were going to give us “new” news, not the old news. You see “new news” would have been which agencies they reported this theft too, not just a vague reference. So since you are in the know, please name them; and provide truly “new news.”

      (Quote)

  19. Tony H: Lyfe Card Services

    Lyfe Card Services was an LLC registered in Nevada to Michael C. Austin. Used the E Greenway Rd. Phoenix address. Registration was revoked, although the reason is unclear.

    Looks like nothing filed after 2006.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  20. “Here’s something for you, the people trying to run AVGA now are actually comprised of the Mod’s from the forum, one of which wasn’t looking too good in the audit”

    Was very interesting to hear that some of the Mods on surf’s are stupid enough to go down with the AVGA ship. I mean, they’re going to be left holding the bag now… Not too smart if this is the truth. When Gary Talbert steps down from any company, it’s going South and should signal members to bail.

    Iv’e been involved with a few internet programs for a brief amount of time. 8 months maybe, but during this time, I’ve noticed the life span of surf’s and hyip’s becoming shorter and shorter. I think I’ve heard almost every excuse now. From we got hacked, embezzled, robbed, burglarized, to payment processor problems, glitches,or the need to change to a different payment processor or it’s the member’s fault (they sent in too large of checks) or this one! We accidently paid you 60 percent too much!!

    The only excuse from this point I might believe would be: hijacked, kidnapped, or the psychiatric evaluation took longer than expected. What’s wrong with the truth?

    I had to delay the program long enough so I could pull out the funds from the processor, obtain passports, and sell my personal properties..

      (Quote)

  21. alasycia: I know, Bob Guenther told me.

    LOL. Nice comeback.

    Speaking of the devil….his case(s) in Arizona must not be going too well or he’d be here crowing about it.

    What I want to know is who’s left to file the complaints? Management is gone and they fired the locals.

    Since they were headquartered in Uruguay, I am assuming they mean the Uruguaian authorities, not the evil Americans. As has been pointed out, you can’t be exempt and protected at the same time.

    What excuses haven’t they used yet?

    Happy Surfing!

      (Quote)

  22. The Mods on Surf’s Up were major promoters of AVG from the beginning. Dont you all remember the reported lunch meeting in Quincy between a couple of them and Andy Bowdoin, just before its launch?

    They were part of the group that encouraged us to join as something that could help us get our ASD money back, even to the point of transferring ad packs in the future. Then they denied any link between Andy Bowdoin and ASD with AVGA. They started and ran the AVGA Ning forum. They deleted all posts that were asked awkward questions or challenged the legitimacy of AVGA.

    Steve, Why are you so surprised that they havent got out yet? They were in the firing line from the start and were the chosen “public face” of AVGA, which operated mysteriously in the background with secrecy about the ownership and everything else. I have no idea which of them were “winners” and which of them were “losers” with ASD, but AVGA certainly seemed to be the payback/prize from the Bowdoin/Harris Gang for loyalty and services rendered through Surf’s Up. Not one of them chose to turn it down, in spite of all they knew (and didnt publish) about ASD. I dont think there will be that many “innocent victims” when AVGA crashes. Most of them knew exactly what they were getting into.

      (Quote)

  23. alasycia: The Mods on Surf’s Up were major promoters of AVG from the beginning.Dont you all remember the reported lunch meeting in Quincy between a couple of them and Andy Bowdoin, just before its launch?
    They were part of the group that encouraged us to join as something that could help us get our ASD money back, even to the point of transferring ad packs in the future.Then they denied any link between Andy Bowdoin and ASD with AVGA.They started and ran the AVGA Ning forum.They deleted all posts that were asked awkward questions or challenged the legitimacy of AVGA.Steve, Why are you so surprised that they havent got out yet?They were in the firing line from the start and were the chosen “public face” of AVGA, which operated mysteriously in the background with secrecy about the ownership and everything else.I have no idea which of them were “winners” and which of them were “losers” with ASD, but AVGA certainly seemed to be the payback/prize from the Bowdoin/Harris Gangfor loyalty and services rendered through Surf’s Up.Not one of them chose to turn it down, in spite of all they knew (and didnt publish) about ASD.I dont think there will be that many “innocent victims” when AVGA crashes.Most of themknew exactly what they were getting into.

    While others question what I say you actually believe me and why not, what’s the big news about the Mod’s trying to take it over? I mentioned it because one of them was found out in the audit as one who took advantage and scammed the system. I t was funny how she could now be in the group trying to control. That’s certainly not me defending AVGA yet I have idiots here saying it’s old news which it isn’t or another one who parrots the same thing everytime about my credibility. I’m not even saying you are on my side at all because you’re not but the fact is even when I say something against AVGA these clowns jump right in with their bullshit automatically. Of course it’s believable about them trying to run it, they have a big stake in it too. The main news is about the one caught scamming and I know no one knew that posted or not posted and I think that’s fairly significant news to anyone in AVGA and not good news either. Why am I saying this? I have my reasons and it wouldn’t be that hard to figure out why.

      (Quote)

  24. Noone here is surprised that the Surf’s Up mods may be running AVGA now and it comes as no great surprise that one of them was caught with their fingers in the till. It is more of a surprise that it was only one of the Founders, it would be more believable if there were more involved. Or maybe there were and we are only hearing about a Surfs Up Mod founder? What do you say?

    Anyway, back to the discussion – joe, as you know so much, can you please give us some <b<proof that these complaints have been filed with the State and Federal authorities (and also which State and which Federal Authorities, as they reckon they are operating out of Uruguay and are not subject to US legislation.) Right now – no paper – no proof, just a lot of unconfirmed statements on the internet.

      (Quote)

  25. Steve,

    You forgot “The genius savior spokeperson for our autosurf (Ponzi) Donna R. turned out to be a thief and the cause of our problems but we didn’t know that when we were singing her praises….” That’s one person who is phenomenally sorry she ever heard of AVG…..

    Steve Watt: “Here’s something for you, the people trying to run AVGA now are actually comprised of the Mod’s from the forum, one of which wasn’t looking too good in the audit”Was very interesting to hear that some of the Mods on surf’s are stupid enough to go down with the AVGA ship. I mean, they’re going to be left holding the bag now… Not too smart if this is the truth. When Gary Talbert steps down from any company, it’s going South and should signal members to bail. Iv’e been involved with a few internet programs for a brief amount of time. 8 months maybe, but during this time, I’ve noticed the life span of surf’s and hyip’s becoming shorter and shorter. I think I’ve heard almost every excuse now. From we got hacked, embezzled, robbed, burglarized, to payment processor problems, glitches,or the need to change to a different payment processor or it’s the member’s fault (they sent in too large of checks) or this one! We accidently paid you 60 percent too much!! The only excuse from this point I might believe would be: hijacked, kidnapped, or the psychiatric evaluation took longer than expected. What’s wrong with the truth? I had to delay the program long enough so I could pull out the funds from the processor, obtain passports, and sell my personal properties..

      (Quote)

  26. alasycia,

    I don’t want to speak for joe, but I’d guess he’d know that it is very unlikely that AVG would file charges against a Mod who had their fingers in the till. He wasn’t the person who suggested AVG would pursue the thieves stealing from same. Andy never filed charges against the Russion hackers, so why would his kids file charges? Discovery’s a b****, and I’m guessing AVG doesn’t want to go through that process……after all, how could one establish the theft of $2.7 MM w/o auditing the books of AVG in detail…..

    alasycia: Anyway, back to the discussion – joe, as you know so much, can you please give us some <b<proof that these complaints have been filed with the State and Federal authorities (and also which State and which Federal Authorities, as they reckon they are operating out of Uruguay and are not subject to US legislation.) Right now – no paper – no proof, just a lot of unconfirmed statements on the internet.

      (Quote)

  27. Steve,

    Steve Watt: I think I’ve heard almost every excuse now. From we got hacked, embezzled, robbed, burglarized, to payment processor problems, glitches,or the need to change to a different payment processor or it’s the member’s fault (they sent in too large of checks) or this one! We accidently paid you 60 percent too much!!

    One of our posters here — LRM or dirty_bird, perhaps? — related a story about a typhoon or hurricane or giant wave that took out an HYIP.

    I won’t have lived until a failure gets blamed on severe gout or perhaps a world-record haboob.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  28. admin: One of our posters here — LRM or dirty_bird, perhaps? — related a story about a typhoon or hurricane or giant wave that took out an HYIP.

    HeHe, that was me.

    The Global Digital Transfers/GDT/FXI HYIP ponzi, based in Vanuatu and purportedly run by an Australian named Mervyn Copperwaite variously reported its’ downtime as being caused by a hurricane destroying the servers, its’ premises being firebombed by jealous rivals and weather knocking out its’ ISP.

      (Quote)

  29. admin: Today a firm with close ties to an alleged Ponzi scheme — and a firm that itself uses a business model associated with Ponzi schemes — says it reported a $2.7 million theft to state and federal authorities.

    May the HYIP gods smile down upon us, the stars align in the heavens and a blue moon shine tonight and make this true.

    Please, please make it happen.

    Once, just once, I’d like to see the “management” of just one of these HYIP ponzi “autosurfs” follow through with their empty threats and actually deliberately involve the authorities.

    Unfortunately, although the records of “The Worlds’ Dumbest Crooks” are filled with stories of spaced out grass growers complaining to police that someone has stolen their crop, I have yet to see one single, solitary HYIP promoter follow up their allegations with an actual complaint.

    One can only live in hope this one is the exception.

      (Quote)

  30. State and federal law enforcement agencies would only agree to investigagte the theft if the business being transacted was lawful. (Don’t even try to call any law enforcement agency and report that your stash of crystal meth has been stolen.)Can’t you just hear them reporting the theft of stolen funds?!

    If the directors of AVGA deluded themselves into beliving they were running a legitimate business rather than a criminal enterprise, then they had a fiduciary duty to report the theft as soon as it was uncovered, in order to protect the interests of the investors, or page impression buyers, as the case may be. For one thing, it was a pipe dream to think that the crooks who started AVGA in the wake of ASD’s implosion would examine their non-existent conscience and decide to return $2.7 million they’d manage to steal. Maybe that was really the matching bonus money that couldn’t be paid because it never existed. Secondly, it sounds like the records of AVGA are so convoluted that they couldn’t prove a stick of gum was missing from a desk drawer, far less several million dollars which might be in ewallet or “somewhere,” and either in the U.S. or Uruguay, whichever venue makes it easier to pin the actual theft of funds back on a few rouge members. Just to keep things really interesting, may I recommend that AVGA hire Larry Friedman as counsel? He doesn’t think AVGA is a Ponzi (if his thinking is the same as his thinking when ASD tanked), and he’s already familiar with the players, whether overtly or covertly, operating AVGA. And it would be so much fun for the rest of us! The conferece calls would be hours of entertainment for the whole family. To top the whole endeavor off, may I recommend that the Sybil of the autosurf world, Bob G./Robert L./Maria, set up a Trust named the AVGA Business Members Association, to serve as intermediary between Larry and the AVGABMA? It doesn’t get any better than this!

      (Quote)

  31. “joe” it is not that what you said was not believed, it just wasn’t “new news.” That was the only thing I was objecting too in your post. I do appreciate your posting the information.

    Wasn’t Donna, and her company, blamed for all AVG’s problems at one time too before this blaming E-Wallet? Wonder what the next “reason” will be. Wait, I know the answer. It is the member’s fault for wanting their money now and not doing the 80/20 rule.

      (Quote)

  32. admin: Steve,

    Steve Watt: I think I’ve heard almost every excuse now. From we got hacked, embezzled, robbed, burglarized, to payment processor problems, glitches,or the need to change to a different payment processor or it’s the member’s fault (they sent in too large of checks) or this one! We accidently paid you 60 percent too much!!

    One of our posters here — LRM or dirty_bird, perhaps? — related a story about a typhoon or hurricane or giant wave that took out an HYIP.I won’t have lived until a failure gets blamed on severe gout or perhaps a world-record haboob.Patrick

    My favorite still comes from the 419 fraud arena. The “stranded Nigerian astronaut” tops everything so far that’s come out of the HYIP industry. I have faith that some HYIP admin will top the following…

    Subject: Nigerian Astronaut Wants To Come Home
    Dr. Bakare Tunde
    Astronautics Project Manager
    National Space Research and Development Agency (NASRDA)
    Plot 555
    Misau Street
    PMB 437
    Garki, Abuja, FCT NIGERIA

    Dear Mr. Sir,

    REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE-STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL

    I am Dr. Bakare Tunde, the cousin of Nigerian Astronaut, Air Force Major Abacha Tunde. He was the first African in space when he made a secret flight to the Salyut 6 space station in 1979. He was on a later Soviet spaceflight, Soyuz T-16Z to the secret Soviet military space station Salyut 8T in 1989. He was stranded there in 1990 when the Soviet Union was dissolved. His other Soviet crew members returned to earth on the Soyuz T-16Z, but his place was taken up by return cargo. There have been occasional Progrez supply flights to keep him going since that time. He is in good humor, but wants to come home.

    In the 14-years since he has been on the station, he has accumulated flight pay and interest amounting to almost $ 15,000,000 American Dollars. This is held in a trust at the Lagos National Savings and Trust Association. If we can obtain access to this money, we can place a down payment with the Russian Space Authorities for a Soyuz return flight to bring him back to Earth. I am told this will cost $ 3,000,000 American Dollars. In order to access the his trust fund we need your assistance.

    Consequently, my colleagues and I are willing to transfer the total amount to your account or subsequent disbursement, since we as civil servants are prohibited by the Code of Conduct Bureau (Civil Service Laws) from opening and/ or operating foreign accounts in our names.

    Needless to say, the trust reposed on you at this juncture is enormous. In return, we have agreed to offer you 20 percent of the transferred sum, while 10 percent shall be set aside for incidental expenses (internal and external) between the parties in the course of the transaction. You will be mandated to remit the balance 70 percent to other accounts in due course.

    Kindly expedite action as we are behind schedule to enable us include downpayment in this financial quarter.

    Please acknowledge the receipt of this message via my direct number 234 (0) 9-234-2220 only.

    Yours Sincerely, Dr. Bakare Tunde
    Astronautics Project Manager
    tip@nasrda.gov.ng

    http://www.nasrda.gov.ng/

      (Quote)

  33. Lynndel Edgington: “joe” it is not that what you said was not believed, it just wasn’t “new news.”

    You nor anyone else here knew who was trying to run AVGA. The Mods from the forum. Thats why it was new news. Maybe no big deal but new here. It was not posted because it wasn’t known or it would have been. Are you kidding, you or Patty or any number of others not making a mockery of that? RRRRight

      (Quote)

  34. Lynndel Edgington: asn’t Donna, and her company, blamed for all AVG’s problems at one time too before this blaming E-Wallet? Wonder what the next “reason” will be. Wait, I know the answer. It is the member’s fault for wanting their money now and not doing the 80/20 rule.

    Well I was one of the people who supported Donna but I’ve come to find out she left before her work was done along with $90,000. I happen to know Ewallet stole that money in fact try to find the 2 mentioned on the breaking news. If you do let us know we’d like to talk to them. These things are both facts which leads back to the one undeniable fact, the Harris’s are total idiots and lousy business people. You would need a crowbar to get their heads out.

      (Quote)

  35. But, but, but ‘joe’ this is being run by Professionals! They learned from the mistakes of ASD. I know because we were told so right from the beginning. It was also reported that the George & Judy don’t run AVG any more. But as for the mods, it was known. Not everything that is known is always posted. But I do agree with you that George and Judy have as much business acumen as a pet rock. For that matter even the mods fit this bill. You have the blind leading the blind. As always the members are the ones who end up holding the bag. You think they would have learned their lesson with ASD.

      (Quote)

  36. joe: I have idiots here saying it’s old news which it isn’t or another one who parrots the same thing everytime about my credibility.

    Interesting comment joe. With all due respect, what’s idiotic about quoting your words? All I’ve been doing is occasionally quoting your self-declared lack of integrity for the benefit of any new readers who may not yet have seen your post.

    “…You want to know the real truth, I could give a sh*t less if it’s legal or not…”

    – AVGA defender, “joe” on Patrick Pretty’s blog

    http://patrickpretty.com/2009/07/06/is-anybody-home-at-adviewglobal

      (Quote)

  37. But Lynn, the Judge hasn’t closed the ASD case andofficially declared it a ponzi, nor has the money been forfeited. You forget that everyone was being paid before the evil gubermint came along and stole “our money”. LOL

    You obviously don’t understand ASD’s innovative business model. (sigh)

      (Quote)

  38. Open Letter to AVG Management:

    On August 5th, 2009, you posted a message to members in the “Breaking News” section of your website, That message is below, with some questions it raises inserted in brackets.
    ___________________________________________

    Valued AVGA Members:

    [Why not “Dear” Valued AVGA Members? Has our relationship deteriorated that much?]

    As you know, we’ve been conducting an audit, trying to reconstruct an accurate picture of all member accounts after SyndicateDigital and Donna Rougeau with-drew from their contract with AVGA.

    [Hmmm, did SD and/or Donna abscond with some funds?
    If so, will you pursue them legally – and if so, in which jurisdiction?

    If not, why include this reference to them in this comment about an audit?]

    We found that many members’ accounts had been altered, and we’re still in the process of restoring them.

    [Altered? By whom? And how did that happen; who had access to the records and/or the software that recorded these things? And by the way, how can you tell that the records have been altered, anyway?]

    We also have been evaluating the extent to which the inflated page impressions amassed by some members created artificial cash balances.

    [Inflated page impressions amassed by whom? Those above whose accounts have been altered? Others? Who?]

    This is taking much longer than originally anticipated.

    [In other words, you’re not going to start allowing cashouts on time?]

    In the process, we’ve been informed that a substantial amount of association money was embezzled by the previous owner of eWallet Plus, Mike Austin, and the eWallet office manager, Alan Minto.

    [Informed? You led members to understand that this was an internal audit, but now you say you’ve been informed? By whom? And how could eWallet personnel embezzle funds? How did they gain access to the money?]

    The stolen funds amount to approximately 2.7-million dollars. Legal complaints have been filed in both cases and are currently being pursued by law enforcement authorities at both the state and federal levels.

    [This is very interesting. Obvious question: If AVG is based offshore, purportedly to avoid the reach of U.S. authorities, how is it that you can now call upon them in this situation?]

    We’ve been reluctant to share this information with you, because we were under the impression that the money would be returned within a fairly brief period of time. In the past 24 hours, however, we’ve learned that it could take 6 months to a year to get the money back to us.

    [What on earth does the speed with which the stolen funds will purportedly be returned have to do with telling members what’s happened? Were you planning on a cover-up if the money came back quickly?]

    But we will recover.

    [Really? Would you care to elaborate? Offer some evidence?]

    Through all of this, we’ve received many, many encouraging emails and phone calls from members who are ardent supporters of AVGA.

    [If true, what’s that have to do with anything? We received a lot of encouraging calls, cards, etc., when grandma died – but she’s still dead.]

    It is our intention that this business continue to grow, so that every single member gains the full benefit from their advertising.

    [Really? We thought the goal was to make members wealthy via rebates/“incentives”]

    We are now making every effort to seek out and solidify new alliances that will enable us to move forward toward growth and longevity.

    [Same song, third or fourth verse (yawn)…]

    Of course, we’ll have to make some changes in order to see this happen.

    [Really? We’re shocked, shocked we say!]

    We’re undergoing a complete overhaul of all management positions and procedural systems.

    [Who, exactly, is the “we” in the “we’re” above? Who are the current people in charge of this Abbott & Costello “Who’s on First?” routine, anyway?]

    If you’re interested, and you have the qualifications to fill an executive position, please submit your resume to avga@comcast.net . This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

    [Interesting. You couldn’t protect the money, but you can protect the email account from spam. That’s progress for ya’!]

    We’re looking for a CFO, a compliance officer, and department managers for public relations, customer service, and new projects. These positions will coordinate small teams of members with expertise in each of these areas, to maintain a consistent and cohesive operation.

    [Let me see if I have this right: You are advertising via a message sent on a private website to a closed group of people who were naïve enough to join this “association” in the first place, and who have watched it go from one disastrous decision to another. And you want the most talented among them to join you as the ship sinks? This is like hiring someone to be in charge of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!]

    All applicants must have a thorough understanding of the current program and the flexibility to adapt to the inevitable changes that accompany rapid growth. If you apply, you will be required to sign a confidentiality agreement that will be strictly enforced.

    [In other words, the smart, talented people whom you want to save this operation cannot use the knowledge they bring to the table in any other similar venture if they leave? That’s cool, but in what jurisdiction will you “strictly enforce” this? Uruguay? The U.S? If the U.S., which state would have jurisdiction?]

    It’s been a very difficult time. But so many exciting aspects—and benefits—of this business wait just around the corner.

    [Or, it may just be the Secret Service, the FBI, the U.S. Attorney General, etc., waiting around the corner.]

    We sincerely hope that you’ll continue to support us . . . and keep on surfing!

    [How’s that working for you, the “keep on surfing” part, that is? Are members still surfing, even if they’re not being paid to do so?]

      (Quote)

  39. Pat:

    Excellent points, and as I was reading it other questions came to mind, but realize it would be a waste of time to mention them. Mainly because no-one from AVG will ever respond to them, let alone your excellent questions. But it would be nice if they did respond to yours. Just don’t hold your breath. Thanks for sharing.

      (Quote)

  40. Lynndel Edgington: For that matter even the mods fit this bill. You have the blind leading the blind. As always

    That’s probably true but at least they are looking for Pro’s to come in and take over. I have been in conversation with them and I know what they have in mind which isn’t something I can share yet mainly because i was asked not to.

      (Quote)

  41. Sounds to me like you are being fed the information the AVGA Gang want to see on Patrick’s Blog. They’ve led you up the garden path so many times and you are now having to come back and recognise that some of the things that you stated as certainties were not exactly true – the quality of the management, the role Donna played etc etc etc.

    We ar still waiting for the official party line about WHICH jurisdiction and which Federal authorities have been the receivers of the AVGA filings relating to the thefts.

      (Quote)

  42. Congrats to Pat Dunn for the Prize Post of the Week! It’s a brilliant piece of writing – what a pity that joe doesnt know enough to answer the questions.

      (Quote)

  43. alasycia: Sounds to me like you are being fed the information the AVGA Gang want to see on Patrick’s Blog.They’ve led you up the garden path so many times and you are now having to come back and recognise that some of the things that you stated as certainties were not exactly true – the quality of the management, the role Donna played etc etc etc.
    We ar still waiting for the official party line about WHICH jurisdiction and which Federal authorities have been the receivers of the AVGA filings relating to the thefts. “They’ve led you up the garden path so many times”

    Well, theres more speculation as always. Everything I said about Donna was true as we all knew it at that time. Kinda hard to know when someone is going to abruptly do something. quality of management? HA when did I ever say the quality of management was good? You’re just rambling. You act like you’re in the know with statements like “They’ve led you up the garden path so many times” and you have no clue what you’re talking about, you just say it like you know and you don’t. The way it looks, since these guys are out of the country we’ll have to go after them from out of the country but I’m not sure, the lawyers are looking at that. Everyone of you on here act like you’re so bright and cutting edge and that anyone at AVGA is just some imbeciles, well if you’re that arrogant and stupid you can’t be too much in this world. Granted, like I said the Harris’s are idiots but there are plenty of people on the scene there that have every bit as much business acumen as you and what they don’t have they are bringing in.

      (Quote)

  44. joe:

    alasycia: Sounds to me like you are being fed the information the AVGA Gang want to see on Patrick’s Blog.They’ve led you up the garden path so many times and you are now having to come back and recognise that some of the things that you stated as certainties were not exactly true – the quality of the management, the role Donna played etc etc etc.
    We ar still waiting for the official party line about WHICH jurisdiction and which Federal authorities have been the receivers of the AVGA filings relating to the thefts. “They’ve led you up the garden path so many times”

    Well, theres more speculation as always. Everything I said about Donna was true as we all knew it at that time. Kinda hard to know when someone is going to abruptly do something. quality of management? HA when did I ever say the quality of management was good? You’re just rambling. You act like you’re in the know with statements like “They’ve led you up the garden path so many times” and you have no clue what you’re talking about, you just say it like you know and you don’t. The way it looks, since these guys are out of the country we’ll have to go after them from out of the country but I’m not sure, the lawyers are looking at that. Everyone of you on here act like you’re so bright and cutting edge and that anyone at AVGA is just some imbeciles, well if you’re that arrogant and stupid you can’t be too much in this world. Granted, like I said the Harris’s are idiots but there are plenty of people on the scene there that have every bit as much business acumen as you and what they don’t have they are bringing in.

    Also I know firsthand bout some of the total screwups Donna’s team did in accounting. Talk about a fustercluck.

      (Quote)

  45. alasycia: Congrats to Pat Dunn for the Prize Post of the Week!It’s a brilliant piece of writing – what a pity that joe doesnt know enough to answer the questions.

    Thats a post of the week? what questions? he just did the old, actually quite old Rush Limbaugh thing of taking bits and pieces and making sarcastic remarks about them. He did ask a couple of questions that were already answered before his post but don’t let that stop you from making comments anyway. How did they gain access? They ran ewallet, how do you think. Who’s running it now? already answered but a team of management that were Mods who are already looking for people that specialize but I suppose thats abnormal and shows company weakness, lord knows no company has have ever done that before. Secret service, FBI, highly doubtful. If you really think that was brilliant then you’re probably an owner of a Pet Rock too. Enjoy

      (Quote)

  46. joe:

    joe:

    alasycia: Sounds to me like you are being fed the information the AVGA Gang want to see on Patrick’s Blog.They’ve led you up the garden path so many times and you are now having to come back and recognise that some of the things that you stated as certainties were not exactly true – the quality of the management, the role Donna played etc etc etc.
    We ar still waiting for the official party line about WHICH jurisdiction and which Federal authorities have been the receivers of the AVGA filings relating to the thefts. “They’ve led you up the garden path so many times”

    Well, theres more speculation as always. Everything I said about Donna was true as we all knew it at that time. Kinda hard to know when someone is going to abruptly do something. quality of management? HA when did I ever say the quality of management was good? You’re just rambling. You act like you’re in the know with statements like “They’ve led you up the garden path so many times” and you have no clue what you’re talking about, you just say it like you know and you don’t. The way it looks, since these guys are out of the country we’ll have to go after them from out of the country but I’m not sure, the lawyers are looking at that. Everyone of you on here act like you’re so bright and cutting edge and that anyone at AVGA is just some imbeciles, well if you’re that arrogant and stupid you can’t be too much in this world. Granted, like I said the Harris’s are idiots but there are plenty of people on the scene there that have every bit as much business acumen as you and what they don’t have they are bringing in.

    Also I know firsthand bout some of the total screwups Donna’s team did in accounting. Talk about a fustercluck.

    Have they ever heard of backups?????

    Servers die, buildings burn but data never needs to be lost.

      (Quote)

  47. I want this job! I want it badly! And I wanteveryone here who thinks I should get it to help me by sending letters of support (you need to gather your friends to assure you generate 50 letters each) to the above E-mail! And while you’re at it, send copies to

    Your Congressman
    Your Senator
    The Inspector General of the Poultry Division of the Department of Agriculture
    Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Micheal Savage
    The Pope
    The head of the refreshment comittee of your local PTA
    The Mayor of the Village of Maineville, Ohio
    The Mayor of Rabbit Hash Kentucky (who is REALLY a dog!)
    Your mother.

    We can take back OUR company and I promise to get the ads rotating again. I will also resume payments on DAY ONE (to me, y’all are on your own) and establish once and for all what country I am in.
    And then I’ll set up a comittee, not a trust, to take $100 from every memeber so I can get your email address and sell it to spammers in Singapoer, and then I’ll insult you and make up weird but true stories of my criminal cases in several states, and how I’m taking over another internet scam that if only I was running it, would be the REAL THING.

    ***this would be funny, but all of the above has happened ya know***

    (and on a serious note, I do afterall have a doctorate in international business and another in economics)

    What say you all?

      (Quote)

  48. Slogan

    “Gregg Evans for 800 pound gorilla in charge of AVGA”

    We’ll have buttons and t-shirts next week

      (Quote)

  49. Gregg Evans: What say you all?

    Depends on what kind of kick back I get for my vote. I will bring my downline along and they will vote the straight party ticket.

      (Quote)

  50. Gregg Evans: I want this job!I want it badly!And I wanteveryone here who thinks I should get it to help me by sending letters of support (you need to gather your friends to assure you generate 50 letters each)to the above E-mail!And while you’re at it, send copies to
    Your Congressman
    Your Senator
    The Inspector General of the Poultry Division of the Department of Agriculture
    Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity and Micheal Savage
    The Pope
    The head of the refreshment comittee of your local PTA
    The Mayor of the Village of Maineville, Ohio
    The Mayor of Rabbit Hash Kentucky (who is REALLY a dog!)
    Your mother.We can take back OUR company and I promise to get the ads rotating again.I will also resume payments on DAY ONE (to me, y’all are on your own)and establish once and for all what country I am in.
    And then I’ll set up a comittee, not a trust, to take $100 from every memeber so I can get your email address and sell it to spammers in Singapoer, and then I’ll insult you and make up weird but true stories of my criminal cases in several states, and how I’m taking over another internet scam that if only I was running it, would be the REAL THING.***this would be funny, but all of the above has happened ya know***(and on a serious note, I do afterall have a doctorate in international business and another in economics)What say you all?

    That’s all very well and good,

    BUT

    will you do anything about the IMPORTANT things,

    like getting this “multi squillion dollar, state of the art, future of internet marketing, cutting edge” company to stop using a free Comcast email account and, instead, at least use one in its’ own name ???

    I mean, if you want to remain known as the company that’s “like” Google and “like” Twitter and “like” YouTube or “like” Omnicon” then surely you could afford your own domain name.

    Somehow, I just can’t see “Google@Comcast.com” or YouTube@AOL.com” cutting it with the big boys, or, for that matter, anyone with an ounce of sense sending their hard earned to a purported multi squillion dollar company with an email address ending with “@comcast.com”

    Err

    Umm,

    Ooops

      (Quote)

  51. Pat Dunn: [How’s that working for you, the “keep on surfing” part, that is? Are members still surfing, even if they’re not being paid to do so?]

    Yes we are.

      (Quote)

  52. Question to self…

    If they act this way, and ramble on this way, and laugh and snicker because they are so smart, what must I make of all this foolishness? It is so self-serving. As usual, it will all play itself out and aside from joe, not much useful knowledge can be found here…again. Yawn!

      (Quote)

  53. You think it’s silly, I think it’s silly. The difference is I didn’t think it so silly that I sent someone my money. If you think I’m acting like I think you’re either in idiot or a crook, it’s because I do think you’re either an idiot or a crook. And no matter what you think of me, I didn’t send any money to these guys, and you did.

    How’s that working our for you?

    Correcction: Question to self…If they act this way, and ramble on this way, and laugh and snicker because they are so smart, what must I make of all this foolishness?It is so self-serving. As usual, it will all play itself out and aside from joe, not much useful knowledge can be found here…again. Yawn!

      (Quote)

  54. memo to self…

    instead of sending money to a ponzi scheme, I bought 98,000 shares of Ford in January, and sold them Monday.

    Cost basis $2.12 / share
    Sell price $8.71 / share

    not having to worry about the government later coming and calling my profit “preferential payments subject to seizure”

    Priceless!

      (Quote)

  55. Come on Barb, you know you are hooked on being here. Where else can you have so much fun, and with such nice people? By the way, you weren’t one of those mods who was leaning too heavily on the “button” were you? Relax, just kidding.

      (Quote)

  56. Hi LRM,

    littleroundman: will you do anything about the IMPORTANT things,

    like getting this “multi squillion dollar, state of the art, future of internet marketing, cutting edge” company to stop using a free Comcast email account and, instead, at least use one in its’ own name ???

    I mean, if you want to remain known as the company that’s “like” Google and “like” Twitter and “like” YouTube or “like” Omnicon” then surely you could afford your own domain name.

    Somehow, I just can’t see “Google@Comcast.com” or YouTube@AOL.com” cutting it with the big boys, or, for that matter, anyone with an ounce of sense sending their hard earned to a purported multi squillion dollar company with an email address ending with “@comcast.com”

    Based on documentation I’ve seen recently in a case separate and distinct from ASD (except for the presence of certain Ponzi shills), I’d say the government is well aware of the reluctance of some operators to use their own domain names in email pitches and for customer service.

    Prior to applying for a search warrant, the government had gathered the names of several suspected insiders. The search-warrant application, BTW, was 30 pages long, including notes about two mathematical analyses. One finding showed that at least 75 percent of the people who participated would gain no return, but noted “a brief period of perceived success” in which a tiny universe of participants would make money.

    “Matching bonuses” were part of the scheme, BTW.

    And the government observed and observed and observed — and, just like ASD, the case features multiple bank accounts (at least nine, from five separate institutions).

    Not that it wasn’t before, but the government also plainly is “on” to the proclivity by schemers to file articles of incorporation with state Secretaries of State and to use shell companies — and also to use maildrops. The government sits outside of the maildrops, apparently in nondescript vehicles, and observes who gathers the mail and where they go after they gather the mail.

    In any event, after the government gets the lay of the land, it seizes the computers — along with certain peripherals and other records — and then brings in people who specialize in “computer forensic techniques.”

    Oh, one more thing: The search warrant in the non-ASD case noted that a bank closed an account held by the alleged schemers, after it noted unusual activity.

    So, the non-ASD case sounded a lot like the ASD case.

    Patrick

    P.S. This case appears not to have direct ties to ASD or clones — but it does appear to have some folks who flogged ASD.

      (Quote)

  57. Quick note:

    admin: P.S. This case appears not to have direct ties to ASD or clones — but it does appear to have some folks who flogged ASD.

    I should have noted in the P.S. that the folks who flogged this “opportunity” did so despite the seizure of tens of millions of dollars from ASD amid allegations of operating a Ponzi scheme while engaging in wire fraud and money laundering.

    It’s easy to forget that the ASD case was brought as a conspiracy, and it looks like some folks left one conspiracy and joined another in short order.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  58. Hi Patrick,

    There is now posted at Eagle Research Associates a detailed mathematical analysis of AVG, outlining the best case scenario about its life cycle. The business model comes compliments of “joe”. As with the autosurf you mention, losers are guaranteed to outnumber winners (so surprise). For AVG, the minimum number of losers is 84% percent under any scenario, although the real number of losers is likely to be higher.

    admin: ……. The search-warrant application, BTW, was 30 pages long, including notes about two mathematical analyses. One finding showed that at least 75 percent of the people who participated would gain no return, but noted “a brief period of perceived success” in which a tiny universe of participants would make money.“Matching bonuses” were part of the scheme, BTW. And the government observed and observed and observed — and, just like ASD, the case features multiple bank accounts (at least nine, from five separate institutions…….

      (Quote)

  59. Hi Entertained,

    Entertained: There is now posted at Eagle Research Associates a detailed mathematical analysis of AVG, outlining the best case scenario about its life cycle.

    Please post the Eagle link when you have a moment.

    Thanks.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  60. Hey joe;

    It’s time for me to acknowledge that you do, indeed, have some credibility here. And it comes about because of a knowledgeable observer and commentator like Entertained, no less.

    Why do I say that? On the Eagle Research Associates website Entertained has an article titled, “Mathematical Analysis of AVG: Payouts and Membership – The Painful Result” Your new-found credibility (with me, anyway) comes from this statement in his article: “Thanks again to ‘joe’ for his insights and detailed information on the workings of AVG. Without his information, this modeling would not be possible.”

    Wow, joe, that’s amazing! So, I must now say that while your self-declared lack of integrity remains an issue, your credibility has now been established.

    As to his article itself, in part, Entertained says:
    “…So far, we have shown that AVG is definitely not sustainable (nor ASD, BAS, AGW, etc). You will hear the cheerleaders also talk about the scheme “always paying out”, or “they were paying out as planned until (fill in your excuse here)” but here’s the thing about Ponzi schemes. They ALWAYS pay out to the first people to join, and NEVER pay out to the last people to join. If they never paid out, they wouldn’t even get started. I worked through a number of different permutations of the recursive analysis of AVG. Interestingly, in every variation of the model, the analysis shows that 16% of the people will make money, and 84% will lose money. Further, no matter how many people eventually join AVG, the first 16% of the people who join will be the 16% who make money. THE LAST 84% WHO JOIN WILL BE THE 84% WHO LOSE MONEY. GUARANTEED!”

    See http://www.eagleresearchassociates.org/avg.php for the complete article, which includes the spreadsheets that document his conclusions.

      (Quote)

  61. Gregg Evans: Gregg Evans
    August 6, 2009 at 9:44 pm | Permalink
    memo to self…
    instead of sending money to a ponzi scheme, I bought 98,000 shares of Ford in January, and sold them Monday.
    Cost basis $2.12 / share
    Sell price $8.71 / share
    not having to worry about the government later coming and calling my profit “preferential payments subject to seizure”
    Priceless!

    So you think it is okay to feed on the misfortune of the people who sold you the stock? They had huge losses and you are smiling because you made money off their pain. Did you offer to pay them what they paid for the stock. And why in the stock market is it okay to pay old investors with new money? You may have made money, but you are no better than Andy. You can sleep and fell great about trading on the pain of others. You are so special!! Your actions are not priceless…your victim paid the price.

      (Quote)

  62. CORRECTION:

    No-one made the person SELL the stock at that price except the person selling it. Trying to equate the stock market to Andy is plain ludicrous. But I always find the circle jerk logic one of a person who knows they can’t win an argument on facts.

    Every time you buy or sell stock in the stock market their is a winner and a loser. Everyone knows this going in. Besides it is legal, ASD was not, nor AVG, nor BAS, nor AGW, or ad-ventures4U, nor megalido, nor MrsVIP, nor CEP, nor 12DP, nor Phoenixsurf, and the list goes on and on.

    You areally are showing your ignorance with this post of yours, but I am sure you thought it was a brilliant come-back. Sorry, you lose again.

      (Quote)

  63. CORRECTION!

    I actually bought Ford at $1.95. Perhaps I sold it to Mr. Evans at $2.12 and I made a profit….. Perhaps the rest of the people who sold him their shares made money as well. You have ZERO way of knowing whether they made or lost money. Perhaps Ford will go to $10 and Gregg will be a “loser.” What we do know is that the market sets the market price for securities, so EVERY trade is at fair market value. Besides, why didn’t you buy a boatload of Ford at that price? Perhaps you thought Ford would file for bankruptcy. If Gregg had bought GM at $2 when he did, he wouldn’t be doing as well. Sheesh, and you have claimed to understand business….. It is 100% true that Gregg made his money legally, and it is 100% true that the dollars came from new investors (and he was an old investor). However, unlike the Ponzi’s you promote, if Mr. Evans would have lost money, then you’d have the new investor benefitting from his loss, ie the new investor “makes money” from the old investor. In your favorite Ponzi schemes, that cannot happen.

    CORRECTION!:

    Gregg Evans: Gregg EvansAugust 6, 2009 at 9:44 pm | Permalinkmemo to self…instead of sending money to a ponzi scheme, I bought 98,000 shares of Ford in January, and sold them Monday.

      (Quote)

  64. Why doesn’t the government recover the lossers money? Why is that different from the situation wherein someone buys advertising with no guarantee of gain? double stadard pal…admit it.

      (Quote)

  65. Why is the stock market more legal? The market sets the value of the advertising too. each time someone buys advertising, someone gets paid. Just because some clown gets on this site and braggs about his great victory on the stock market proves only that he is a small person…his priceless remark is calous. Nothing is guaranteed and there are winners and losers everywhere…admit it.

      (Quote)

  66. Thats it!!!! Thanks Correction, I’ve got Ponzi Buzzword Bingo! I’m calling “House”, and I’ve got the big prize!!

    I was waiting for “Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme”, but thanks to you I have got a Full House with “The Stock Market Is Just A Ponzi”. It’s been a while since I’ve seen that excuse, so I wasn’t hopeful. But I should have had more faith in Ponzi scammers such as your self & joe. Thanks very much.

    If anyone’s interested, the prize is a signed copy of “Just Numbers On a Screen” (signed by Marsden, of course), 100 grams of IntGold, a “I [heart] Charis Johnson” bumper sticker and a slightly used “Trevor Reed” pencil sharpener.

    I wonder when one of these ponzi scammers will have the imagination to come up with a new, unique excuse?

      (Quote)

  67. It is the truth…live with it. While you count your gains, someone else looses. Where is the government to help the loosers just answer that if you can. until you do youare no better than any one else who bought something with no guarantee. Double standard bull….live with it.

      (Quote)

  68. A new Ponzi Buzzword Bingo game and a new, fresh, card to start crossing the boxes on.

    I think that counts as “Blame the Evil Government For Everything” – so that’s me with a corner square to start with. Keep going Correction. If I can get a diagonal, I could get a “Graham Kelly OSGold – ‘Here In Australia'” post card.

      (Quote)

  69. Tony,

    While I am not a Professional Ponzi Pusher, can I offer “All Capitalism is a Ponzi Scheme” which is basically what CORRECTION! is implying. Apparently, when one buys a good or a service (or a piece of a business, such as a share of a company’s stock), if the seller makes money, then it’s a Ponzi. If the buyer makes money, then it’s a Ponzi. Maybe “All Capitalism is a Ponzi” should be your center square. Sigh….

    Oh, and CORRECTION!, the government DOES bail out people who lose money on legitimate investments (but not necessarily on the illegal scams you push). It is called a Capital Loss, and you can find it on Schedule D (I’ll assume you at least know what that is.) Sorry to explain something so basic, but….. Further, the government taxes gains (and btw, did you report YOUR gains in your scams on line 21 of your 1040 like you are legally required to do?)

    Tony H: A new Ponzi Buzzword Bingo game and a new, fresh, card to start crossing the boxes on.I think that counts as “Blame the Evil Government For Everything” – so that’s me with a corner square to start with. Keep going Correction. If I can get a diagonal, I could get a “Graham Kelly OSGold – ‘Here In Australia’” post card.

      (Quote)

  70. Double standard bull…you know it is!!!

      (Quote)

  71. Yup, real advertising has a market value as well. As you are well aware, the market value of 1 click for 15 seconds is not $1.00. Further, as you well know, when people pay for advertising, the transaction is between the business owner and the provider of the advertising. The viewers of the advertising do not get paid a significant amount and generally get nothing. Further, those viewers are NOT required to pay lots of $$$$ in order to join some illegal scam, which is what they need to do to join the illegal Ponzi’s of your choice, like ASD, AVG, etc.

    Oh, and to answer your question, “why is the stock market legal?”

    There are myriad reasons, and as well there’s a rather large government organization strictly overseeing matters in the stock market (ever hear of the SEC? I think their contact information can be found by emailing securitiesandexchangecommission@aol.com — oh wait, that’s AVG). One simple difference. It does not matter at what point in time you invest in the stock market, unlike your favorite Ponzi schemes. In Ponzi schemes, only the early entrants make money. For AVG for example, at a minimum 84% will lose money, and it is the last 84% who join AVG who will lose. Not true in the stock market of course. What matters is what the market value is when you invest. Of course, most people want to buy low and sell high, but that is easier said than done. Why didn’t you have the courage to buy Ford in March like Gregg?

    CORRECTION!: Why is the stock market more legal? The market sets the value of the advertising too. each time someone buys advertising, someone gets paid. Just because some clown gets on this site and braggs about his great victory on the stock market proves only that he is a small person…his priceless remark is calous. Nothing is guaranteed and there are winners and losers everywhere…admit it.

      (Quote)

  72. OK, I accept your challenge. It’s called Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. The government does provide relief for people who lose money in the stock market. Basedon your post, I guess now that I have answered your question, you would consider me to better than someone like yourself who is an avowed AVG supporter/investor (though you call it advertising purchaser). I would never claim to be better than you however.

    CORRECTION!: It is the truth…live with it. While you count your gains, someone else looses. Where is the government to help the loosers just answer that if you can. until you do youare no better than any one else who bought something with no guarantee. Double standard bull….live with it.

      (Quote)

  73. Entertained: OK, I accept your challenge. It’s called Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. The government does provide relief for people who lose money in the stock market.

    I am not familiar with US laws with regards to investments, but in the UK, the private investor has some protection as well. I don’t know the exact regulations, but where shares are held on an investors behalf, the investor has some sort of protection by the FSA should the share dealer disappear.

    Also, if a private investor bought shares on the advice of a Financial Advisor, there are other protections & regulations in force.

    The same cannot be said for investors in obvious ponzi autosurfs like ASD or AVG. This is not a double standard, the protection is offered because the share dealer or advisor is registered with and regulated by appropriate financial regulators. Again, the same cannot be said for ASD or AVG.

    And yet, often these ponzi schemes will try to show that they are covered by some sort of government protection. Was it not an ASD promoter that claimed that ASD was FDIC protected? And then there is the attempt to generate an air of respectability by registering shell companies or “associations” or “trusts”.

      (Quote)

  74. Entertained,

    Entertained: While I am not a Professional Ponzi Pusher, can I offer “All Capitalism is a Ponzi Scheme” which is basically what CORRECTION! is implying. Apparently, when one buys a good or a service (or a piece of a business, such as a share of a company’s stock), if the seller makes money, then it’s a Ponzi. If the buyer makes money, then it’s a Ponzi. Maybe “All Capitalism is a Ponzi” should be your center square. Sigh….

    Several weeks back, after AVG announced the bonuses and cash button had led to a monumental problem, some fine capitalists proposed a Socialistic, return-to-Ponzi-health plan.

    The plan featured accounting tricks and a redistribution scheme of the same ilk some AVG members accused the government of foisting on the American people. The economic theory behind a Ponzi’s return to health apparently holds wealth can be created by taking away vast holdings from some members so other members with smaller stakes can enjoy higher daily payout rates from the Ponzi’s advertising rotator.

    AdGateWorld is said to be doing a redistribution scheme of its own and making bonus ad packs disappear even as we speak.

    Under the proposed AVG redistribtion scheme, which apparently wasn’t implemented because too many members grumbled about losing the 200 percent matching bonuses they were promised, AVG would have reduced the maximum number of “page impressions” (ad-packs) an individual member may hold to 250,000.

    Some members reportedly had more than 1 million page impressions on the books. Their holdings would have been reduced to 250,000 by fiat, with the excess placed off the books in a nonearning state of suspended animation for at least 30 days.

    Here is the story on the proposed redistribution scheme:

    http://patrickpretty.com/2009/06/19/capitalism-communism-socialism-is-autosurfism-next-members-say-adviewglobal-surf-considering-bailout/

    And, of course, it is not the first time the purportedly ardently Capitalistic Ponzi enthusiasts ventured into Socialist waters.

    Indeed, the idea that moneyed BIG advertisers and moneyed Main Street brands would be happy to forgo rebate profits so lesser advertisers could profit in the rotators is one of the great imponderables of autosurfing.

    http://patrickpretty.com/2009/01/10/seattle-post-intelligencer-imperiled-could-it-use-the-autosurf-model-to-save-itself/

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  75. Tony,

    A sharp-eyed reader shared this link today. You may find it useful in understanding how part of the U.S. debate is shaping up:

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/154258-proposed-accountability-bill-could-prove-a-game-changer-for-investors

    Regards,

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  76. CORRECTION!: Why is the stock market more legal?The market sets the value of the advertising too. each time someone buys advertising, someone gets paid.Just because some clown gets on this site and braggs about his great victory on the stock market proves only that he is a small person…his priceless remark is calous. Nothing is guaranteed and there are winners and losers everywhere…admit it.

    You and the other apologists seem to have a problem with the concept of legality. Some things are legal, some are not. Let’s forget the product/no product debate for a bit.

    Where I live, selling booze is legal…if you have the proper licenses and the liquor is taxed. Other rules apply. If you don’t have the right licenses, sell untaxed liquor, sell to intoxicated persons, sell to minors, etc, you get charged with an offense. It’s as simple as that.

    If you don’t like a particular law, you can petition to have it changed or you can vote for a candidate who shares your views.

    Most people choose to follow the law whether they agree or not. Some take their chances…and usually squeal like stuck pigs when they get caught and have to pay the consequences…

      (Quote)

  77. It’s a given that the end stages of a HYIP ponzi and “autosurf” cycle brings out the same tired old arguments. Most of them being advanced by “true believers” desperately trying to avoid the inevitable, and ALL of them distractions from reality.

    In any other context, someone drawing the conclusion that a HYIP ponzi “autosurf” is “like” the stock market would be howled down within a heartbeat of making such an outrageous claim.

    Suugesting a HYIP ponzi fraud is “like” the stockmarket requires the same sort of tortured logic that claims an apple is “like” an orange, a Volkswagen is “like” a Rolls Royce or vodka is “like” water.

    Similarities abound. Apples are round, as are oranges. Both are fruits, both are edible, both contain seeds and both grow on trees.

    In the abbreviated world of internet forums and blogs, a clever ponzi promoter could perhaps, for a short time at least, convince someone unfamiliar with fruit that apples ARE “like” oranges.

    “Like” ????? definitely

    “The same as” ????

    No bl***y way.

    Sadly, clever HYIP ponzi promoters are only too aware of how to use space restrictions, errors by omission, distraction, misdirection and downright lies to convince those unfamiliar with business practices that HYIP ponzi “autosurfs” are “like” the stock exchange/Social Security/advertising/social networking/Google.

    Whether or not “Correction” and her fellow HYIP ponzi “autosurf” player friends ever awaken from their Bowdoin induced coma is debatable, however, her statement that for someone to profit from the stock market there needs to be an equivalent loser shows such a lack of understanding of the process as to make sensible discourse nigh on impossible.

    To then further equate a HYIP ponzi “autosurf” with legitimate business practices only serves to make sensible discussion TOTALLY impossible.

      (Quote)

  78. LRM, could you please explain the pink sheets to me and why they are allowed to exist? And the VSE, Vancouver Stock Exchange?

      (Quote)

  79. There is no double standard, and the transaction I described is how real business operates. Ford does not at this time pay dividends, but if it resumes paying them, the stockholders will get every quarter a part of their earnings based on how much stock they hold. It also is not absolutely true that what I made I took from someone else anymore than someone who bought my stock will be taking from me if the stock goes to $10 or higher. Rational investors buy stocks for rational reasons. As Ford is my employer, I don’t buy it as an investment (hint, never “invest” large amounts in your employer, if they go broke you lose your savings and your job at the same time) but as a trade. When I bought it I had decided it was under priced on the assumption that Ford would likely declare bankruptcy. As I have pointed out many times, I doubt Ford will ever declare bankruptcy until it’s way too late to avoid, for the simple reason that the Ford Family controls 40% of the votes and they would have to vote to make themselves broke in a company they have controlled for over 100 years, something I find very unlikely. When I bought it, I intended to hold it for six months or to sell half when it reached $7 and the other half a bit higher. I held on longer than I had planned because it was going good, but my discipline got to me and I finally sold it, I was fearing my own greed, honestly. Anyhow, casual investors who didn’t agree with that assessment decided that they wanted out before the things they expected happened, and they didn’t. I have no idea if those people who sold had been collecting dividends for decades before they sold it, what their cost basis was, if they sold the stock to take a tax position or if they needed the money. Maybe they had bought it like me with a time limit and the time ran out. Unlike Ponzi schemes, when they decided they wanted their money back for whatever reasons, there were perhaps millions of people like me willing to take their stock off their hands and pay cold hard cash for it. Do I have an advantage? Well, maybe I do. But not because my stepfather will pay someone to surf my daily sites for me to get my payout, but simply because I’m a third generation Ford employee who knows the company from the inside and better than most analysts who make their living by knowing companies. Or maybe because I have a doctorate in business. Or maybe I’m just lucky. I lose in the market too, this trade almost covered my losses last year in Visteon, another transaction that by any objective measure I should have had an advantage over a casual investor. Notice I said just advantage, not unfair advantage. I’m not high enough up in Ford to know things that would give me that.

    The point is, me, the people who sold to me and the people I sold to all were acting on reliable and verifiable information, Ford builds cars and sells them. They don’t say they sell cars and take my money to pay the next guy without bothering to sell the cars. Or build the cars for that matter. They don’t pay me in Transmissions, and the business statements they make in various government filings or indeed in investor press releases are both true and verified by in independent auditor. If I win or lose is not a matter of luck or being the first in or if I got numbers of people after me to invest, it’s based on how well Ford does at convincing people that they can make money building cars and if they do I’ll get to share the profits with the other shareholders. In fact, when you buy or sell a stock in a company, except in the case of a new offering, the money I spent didn’t go to Ford at all, it went to the old owner of the stock. And in the case of Ford, even the ORIGINAL buyer who bought the stock in 1956 when it went public didn’t give any money to Ford directly, as the shares were at that time owned by a charity whom the Ford family had donated it to years earlier. The only time Ford as a company has offered stock to the public directly was believe it or not just last month.
    That’s another difference between you and me (aside from showing how a real investment, or trade in my case, works) I made money from knowing about the business I send my money too. I might have lost but based on good information I thought it was a good trade. Ford says they build and sell cars and I can believe them. I know who the people who run Ford are. I know who the independent CPAs who audit Ford are. I know where Ford invests the money they make and it happens to be the same place they say it is. With a cheap ponzi scheme, no one will tell me these things and any answer they do give I cannot trust as being true. My investments in general make money for me, the ones you defend only make money for the few at the top and the people operating them. Make or lose money, Ford provides a product, they put cars on the road. Your investments only take money out of the pockets of some and put it into the pockets of others.

    Do I belittle you for your choices? You betcha. If you’re not a crook, you’re ignorant enough of business that you have no business giving anyone else advice on investing. And if you do try to tell people how to invest, I am left with the choice of you’re a social evil because you’re a thief or you’re socially irresponsible in advising people so much ignorance that you should for the greater good shut up. So, we’re back to the original proposition I made, you’re either a crook or an idiot, either way, if the world was a just place, you’d just shut up.

    CORRECTION!: It is the truth…live with it. While you count your gains, someone else looses.Where is the government to help the loosers just answer that if you can.until you do youare no better than any one else who bought something with no guarantee. Double standard bull….live with it.

      (Quote)

  80. littleroundman: Whether or not “Correction” and her fellow HYIP ponzi “autosurf” player friends ever awaken from their Bowdoin induced coma is debatable, however, her statement that for someone to profit from the stock market there needs to be an equivalent loser shows such a lack of understanding of the process as to make sensible discourse nigh on impossible.
    To then further equate a HYIP ponzi “autosurf” with legitimate business practices only serves to make sensible discussion TOTALLY impossible.

    Thank you…it is different. I do not equate them. Only the government and the few of you here do. One is an ivestment and one is a purchase. Thanks for pointing that out so well to all of us. It seems to me then, that if you are truely interested in sensible discusion, you would admit that, as you concluded, there is a difference. Is there a difference?

    As for the stock market profiteers who pray on losers who hold stock in depressed companies, unless there is continued, sustained growth to infinity in a company and the value of it’s stock there will be losers. Growth in a stock market has it’s limits, just like Enterained’s AVG math runs out of potential new customers at AVG. New money drives up the stock price, yet it isn’t that illegal? Perhaps they should ban the sale of stocks for profit. You can only sell them for what you paid for them and not a penny more. Otherwise you excede 100% of your investments value and new money pays you your profit. 410% profit must be illegal? How is 410% profit possible without new money coming into the market? Sound familiar? But the sale of stocks for more than you paid for them is not illegal, it is encouraged, in our word of double standards?

    A truely sensible discussion would allow that it is no different with Internet advertising companies or any business. New revenue drives business. No growth is infinite, and it was new money that paid back over 400% to the bragging, bottom feeding Ford profiteers, and the shameful “Priceless” remark. “Priceless”…tell that to the people holding stocks when the markets crashed. Are they not paying a price when their 401K is now a 201K?

    Finally, I have a suggestion. Why don’t the bragging stock traders/profiteers at the expense of others, pay for Andy’s legal fight with their obscene profits and we can put it to rest in court. Put up your profits to get a jury of 12 citizens to agree with you and the govenment. Until that happens, you will never be right and neither will the ASD supporters. This question deserves a day in court, and I do not mean a hearing to free operating funds. I

      (Quote)

  81. Gregg Evans: Do I belittle you for your choices? You betcha. If you’re not a crook, you’re ignorant enough of business that you have no business giving anyone else advice on investing. And if you do try to tell people how to invest, I am left with the choice of you’re a social evil because you’re a thief or you’re socially irresponsible in advising people so much ignorance that you should for the greater good shut up. So, we’re back to the original proposition I made, you’re either a crook or an idiot, either way, if the world was a just place, you’d just shut up.

    Me shut up? That’s a hoot!! I didn’t give investment advice and I never have. You just assume I have, and you know what assumptions make. Perhaps I am an idiot, because I am not a crook. By definition coming here and posting must qualify me as an idiot. You on the other hand beamed about your “Priceless” 311% (I corrected my math)profit (before fees)and how it made you feel to profit from “new money” going into your pocket, while at the same time you belittle others who just made a purchase with no guarantees. I’d rather be me than you any day.

      (Quote)

  82. CORRECTION: We are glad you are you too. Also glad to learn that you just pretend to be a business person. You should remember the old adage: ‘It is one thing to be thought a fool, and another to open your mouth and remove all doubt.’

    I really do feel sorry for you if you really believe all the utter B.S. you have been spouting. Glad to know that you believe in the old expression: ‘when you can’t B.S. them with brilliance, baffle them with B.S.’

      (Quote)

  83. Entertained: OK, I accept your challenge. It’s called Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. The government does provide relief for people who lose money in the stock market. Basedon your post, I guess now that I have answered your question, you would consider me to better than someone like yourself who is an avowed AVG supporter/investor (though you call it advertising purchaser). I would never claim to be better than you however.

    My question is why does the govenment let this stock trading ponzi happen in the first place. Why don’t they protect the losers from the possibility of financial disaster? You have people profiting 310% from new money and it is legal. Yet, it is illegal to operate a “revenue share” business involving the purchase of Internet advertising with no guarantee of profit for viewing ads. I’m not promoting anything here. I don’t care what you do. I’m just asking this sensible conversation to include the possibility that there is a double standard.

    The buying and selling of anything marketable requires new money and the potential for the less informed particpants to lose. It’s a source of pride to win in the “stock market” even though unless the stock price rises forever, which you have proved by association is impossible, someone must lose money unless they hold the stock forever from the day of issuance.

    How can we let this happen? Easy answer…two standards. Moraling acceptable stock market winners and losers on one hand, criminal behavior for revenue sharing with no promises of gain on the other. I was always taught that double standards were unfair. Does anyone wonder why there is disagreement?

      (Quote)

  84. Lynndel Edgington: I really do feel sorry for you if you really believe all the utter B.S. you have been spouting. Glad to know that you believe in the old expression: ‘when you can’t B.S. them with brilliance, baffle them with B.S.’

    I’m not B.S.ing anyone, and I don’t claim to be brilliant. I’m just stating facts and exposing the double standard. This discussion has never been fair or very accurate. I’ll say this and I have good reason to believe it is true. Take away the felonious history of some of the participants, their apparent mismanagement, their alledged lying and sloppy record keeping and the government would not have a problem with the “revenue share” business model. This is not about the business model, but rather about the players and the money.

      (Quote)

  85. Correcction: One is an ivestment and one is a purchase.

    See, there ya go,

    “one is an investment and one is a purchase”

    such a simple statement, but it encapsulates the whole problem, right there.

    This is a FRAUD investigation.

    The FRAUD the prosecution is alleging is that Bowdoin and Co made you THINK you were making a purchase.

    There is no need for discussion about securities violations, ponzi definitions or, for that matter, comparisons with stock markets IT’S NOT ABOUT ANY OF THEM.

    They have no relevance.

    The SEC wasn’t and isn’t even involved.

    WIRE FRAUD, MONEY LAUNDERING AND CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT BOTH.

    They’re the allegations.

    NOT securities violations.

    Following Corrections’ logic, someone who stabbed another person to death wouldn’t be guilty of murder because he or she didn’t poison them.
    Or, the murder didn’t conform strictly to Wikipedias’ definition of murder, so it somehow didn’t happen.

    Or art fraud isn’t fraud if the painting concerned is good enough to fool the purchaser.

    That’s the whole point of fraud, isn’t it: “deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage”

    That the victims “thought”ASD was a legitimate advertising medium therefore “thought” they were buying advertising, is the reason for the original complaint stipulating “wire FRAUD”

    as in: “Wire fraud, in the United States Code, is ANY CRIMINALLY FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY that has been determined to have involved electronic communications of any kind, at any phase of the event”

    As inept a fraudster as Bowdoin has turned out to be, surely even he wouldn’t attempt to run a scam where the victims knew exactly what was going on.

    Further,

    The prosecution has long since had the books, computers and records (or lack of)

    They’ve SEEN the fraud, how it was done and to whom. And, what’s more, with the passing of every day, they’re seeing more and more.

    They’re not relying on “Andy said” or “ASD is like……” or “my upline told me” they KNOW IT WAS AND IS A FRAUD.

    As for Corrections’ understanding of stock markets.

    With her assertion “every stock market winner requires a loser” as the basis for discussion, one might as well have a debate with a Kalahari tribesman who firmly believes the sun revolves around the earth, on the finer points of quantum physics AND fit said discussion on a blog.

      (Quote)

  86. It is what it is, and what it is has yet to be determined…for now…I think? But we are getting closer…

      (Quote)

  87. C’mon CORRECTION!, you can do better than that. You cannot even remember what you said, or read what you typed. Your question, verbatim with typos, was: “Where is the government to help the loosers just answer that if you can. until you do youare no better than any one else who bought something with no guarantee.” and I answered that.

    Now you raise other questions while conveniently ignoring the answers to your previous questions. Trading stocks is legal whether you like it or not, just as the Ponzi’s you favor are illegal whether you like it or not. In Gregg’s case, he came out ahead, but had Ford filed for bankruptcy, he’d have lost his entire investment. He pointed out that he lost an equivalent amount in Visteon, and I’ve had my share as well, riding WCOM into the ground just like Major TJ Kong.

    In any case, it is quite possible to build legal social advertising network companies that share revenue. It is not hard to do (in concept), and I have posted several variations in several places. However, NOT one of the HYIP Ponzi schemes you promote is using one of these models. Instead, they choose to use the illegal, minimum of 84% of people will lose, models like AVG.

    As to the Black Box analysis of the stock market, for example, (or more involved, the recently posted recursive model), until you understand these things please don’t make claims using them, and certainly don’t link me to them. Your statement is true in the abstract, in that practically speaking the creation of wealth cannot go on to infinity, but for an extremely long time humans can, and will continue, to create wealth essentially from planet earth. It is this process of creation of wealth (that resides within the Black Box of the stock market) that allows continuous growth of the value of human enterprise. Planting crops, extracting minerals, shaping raw materials into goods, etc. — the harvesting of human ingenuity and energy — all fuel the global growth of human activity and wealth, as reflected in the stock market. I expect that will continue on for a LONG period of time. Your favorite Ponzi, AVG, on the other hand, cannot last more than a couple years or so. Further, AVG does not create anything new wealth. It only moves the wealth from the ignorant to the criminal.

    Correcction:

    Entertained: OK, I accept your challenge. It’s called Schedule D, Capital Gains and Losses. The government does provide relief for people who lose money in the stock market. Based on your post, I guess now that I have answered your question, you would consider me to better than someone like yourself who is an avowed AVG supporter/investor (though you call it advertising purchaser). I would never claim to be better than you however.

    My question is why does the govenment let this stock trading ponzi happen in the first place. Why don’t they protect the losers from the possibility of financial disaster? You have people profiting 310% from new money and it is legal. Yet, it is illegal to operate a “revenue share” business involving the purchase of Internet advertising with no guarantee of profit for viewing ads. I’m not promoting anything here. I don’t care what you do. I’m just asking this sensible conversation to include the possibility that there is a double standard. The buying and selling of anything marketable requires new money and the potential for the less informed particpants to lose. It’s a source of pride to win in the “stock market” even though unless the stock price rises forever, which you have proved by association is impossible, someone must lose money unless they hold the stock forever from the day of issuance. How can we let this happen? Easy answer…two standards. Moraling acceptable stock market winners and losers on one hand, criminal behavior for revenue sharing with no promises of gain on the other. I was always taught that double standards were unfair. Does anyone wonder why there is disagreement?

      (Quote)

  88. No CORRECTION!,

    The business model variant that the AVG founders chose is illegal and unsustainable. They easily could have chosen a legal variation. Why did they not? Easy answer actually — they wouldn’t have been insiders in a get-rich-quick scheme and have made easy (illegal) money.

    I have answered your questions, please answer this one for me.

    Why didn’t the founders, in your mind, chose one of the obvious legal social network revenue sharing advertising autosurf business models?

    Correcction:

    Lynndel Edgington: I really do feel sorry for you if you really believe all the utter B.S. you have been spouting. Glad to know that you believe in the old expression: ‘when you can’t B.S. them with brilliance, baffle them with B.S.’

    I’m not B.S.ing anyone, and I don’t claim to be brilliant. I’m just stating facts and exposing the double standard. This discussion has never been fair or very accurate. I’ll say this and I have good reason to believe it is true. Take away the felonious history of some of the participants, their apparent mismanagement, their alledged lying and sloppy record keeping and the government would not have a problem with the “revenue share” business model. This is not about the business model, but rather about the players and the money.

      (Quote)

  89. The stock market is NOT a ponzi. It doesn’t require any new money be put into the stock for everyone to make a profit. As I pointed out, no new money was put into Ford from it’s founding in 1903 until just last month. That’s 106 years and the new money that was put in was hardly required, it was just a good way to raise some money.

    Read that again, Ford was founded in 1903, and no new money was put in by stockholders until 2009. In the interim, literally tens of Billions of dollars have been made by the act of changing iron ore and other materials into cars and selling them. A real product. And there have been no losers, in an abstract way, because every time one of the shares has been traded, it traded at fair market value and even today every share is worth 1/2,870,000,000 of the company and the companies future profits. If Ford privatizes the shares today, every one of those shares will be redeemed for cash.
    Listen one more time, and I’ll try to use little words. There is no new money. Ford created the shares over one hundred years ago, gave 90% of them to charity in 1936 and the Ford Foundation sod their shares to the public in 1956. That is all the money (none, ironically) that Ford has ever gotten from the sale of the stock. Last month, they raised 1.6 Billion and change from the only “new money” that has ever been put into the company. Get it?

      (Quote)

  90. interesting trivia, Ford went public @ $64.50 per share, and one share from then has, through splits become today 190.2 shares. A single share bought at the IPO would with re-invested dividends would now be worth $1,269,267.

      (Quote)

  91. Correcction: I’ll say this and I have good reason to believe it is true. Take away the felonious history of some of the participants, their apparent mismanagement, their alledged lying and sloppy record keeping and the government would not have a problem with the “revenue share” business model. This is not about the business model, but rather about the players and the money.

    Hey Correcction;

    Using your reasoning, one might say, “Take away the felonious history of some of the participants, the murders, their machine guns, their alledged bribery of police and judges, the sloppy record keeping – and the government would not have a problem with Al Capone and his associates’ business model.”

    Priceless!

      (Quote)

  92. Entertained,

    Some of the AVG members say that, since the ASD case hasn’t been fully adjudicated, it’s OK to use the ASD model.

    So, to borrow from dirty_bird’s booze-selling analogy above, some of the AVG folks are saying that, if two bars are permitting illegal gambling inside — and only one gets busted — the one that doesn’t get busted is allowed to continue to permit illegal gambling until the case against the bar that got busted is adjudicated, even though gambling is illegal.

    Not all that long ago, Gregg compared some of the ASD/AVG supporters’ tortured constructions to throwing a wrench off the top of a building and conflating a reality that, since the wrench is in the air, it might form wings and not hit the ground.

    The argument by some AVG members, of course, ignores Andy’s proffer letter and his own acknowledgments (plural) that ASD was operating illegally. And it also ignores the fact that Andy’s attorney is now negotiating with the government, announcing the negotiations in a PUBLIC filing.

    None of Andy’s previous negotiations was announced in a public filing while the negotiations were under way.

    He did not tell the rank-and-file about the proffer letter, for instance. And he did not tell them about the January forfeiture decision. They read about it in the newspaper and on Blogs and forums.

    What he did tell them, eventually, was that he was going pro se to reverse his forfeiture decision, assuring them that a “group” had advised him on his past legal errors and reassuring them that the government still was evil.

    The “group,” however, appears not to have anticipated Judge Collyer’s ruling that corporate entities cannot proceed pro se, which forced Andy to hire paid counsel to undo the damage he caused himself by consulting with the “group” and filing what amounted to political statements, not cogent legal arguments.

    “I hate the government” doesn’t help fleeced widows in Florida or abate Andy’s crisis, especially when the “group” doesn’t have to pay the bill for Andy’s civil liability or serve the time for Andy should he one day be convicted of a crime.

    Surf’s Up hinted prior to the filings becoming public that something was in the offing — after AVG switched to an “association” structure and after it was reported that the government had seized other bank accounts on or around Feb. 24.

    Andy’s first pro se pleading was dated Feb. 25. AVG announced the “association” Feb. 26. Andy filings became public a few days later. Imagine that.

    And imagine a decision by the AVG folks to launch an autosurf with a proffer letter in play from the patriarch. One of the unanswered questions is whether the purported 30 “founders” and other insiders knew about the letter prior to launch — or whether the government surprised them with the bombshell announcement in its last response (April 24) to Andy’s pro se pleadings.

    http://patrickpretty.com/2009/04/24/prosecution-bombshell-bowdoin-signed-proffer-letter-prior-to-submitting-to-forfeiture-that-said-governments-material-allegations-were-all-true/

    At a minimum, the founders and insiders all knew about the ASD seizure — and yet started right back up again with AVG. That’s bad enough because of the “in your face” elements. But if they knew about the proffer letter — and if AVG’s switch to an “association” was caused by it and the secondary seizures of bank accounts — it looks like a conspiracy to obstruct justice, along with a conspiracy to commit wire fraud and money-laundering.

    Steroidal puppeteers and devoted criminals, for instance, might not have been pleased by a proffer letter. And people who just want a stage from which to rant against the government, regardless of the consequences of their actions on other people, might not even care if there was a proffer letter. The political battle is much more important than the legal battle to some people.

    It seems that the words Judge Collyer used in her first round of denials of pro se pleadings have had a significant effect on Andy’s thinking. As you pointed out, Entertained, the judge was very clear.

    Andy also seems to have fallen out of favor on Surf’s Up. His most ardent supporters — including the Mods — no longer are leading the cheers. Although Surf’s Up never announced a divorce, it seems that some folks have decided that their interests and Andy’s interests no longer are equivalent.

    Lots of people lost lots of money — and because the government plans to implement an ASD refund program in which members will have to certify under oath they were crime victims, it might not have been the smartest thing to follow the promoters right into AVG. It’s possible that AVG participation cost them any chance of getting a proportional refund from any common pool of ASD funds that may emerge.

    In the end, involving people in a new conspiracy may prove to be Surf’s Up’s most ignoble contribution to this saga. On the bright side, though, if the government is able to determine the identities of people who joined AVG after the ASD debacle, it could mean more money will be available to compensate real victims.

    CORRECTION, for his part, still has a need to cloud the issues as evidenced in this thread. I wonder if he has considered the possibility that people he trusted lied to him repeatedly, broke his heart and embarrassed him.

    For the moment, it seems easier for CORRECTION to display anger at people who post here and to author tortured constructions than to examine the possibility that he got hoodwinked by people he thought were his friends.

    CORRECTION easily could have been influenced by GIGO and passed along the GIGO as fact. Regardless, after these many months, CORRECTION still hasn’t been able to point to a single, verifiable income stream — and yet somehow seems able to maintain some faith in the AVG enterprise.

    And CORRECTION previously talked about “plants” within AVG and railed against what he sees as this Blog’s unfair coverage of AVG. Fact is, though, that the cash button suddenly went missing, the bonuses (and all “earnings”) went into a state of suspended animation, and AVG simply isn’t paying — and AVG now says it was victim of a $2.7 million theft.

    AVG announced it reported the theft one day after Andy’s lawyer filed a motion and advised the court that negotiations were under way.

    It looks to me as though AVG was an amalgamation, rather than a singular entity controlled by a single individual. It does not appear even to have had a common revenue pool or controls to prevent insiders from cherry-picking funds, and there are issues about the ownership of eWalletPlus. Much is unclear about AVG, Vana Blue, eWalletPlus, Karveck International, Karveck Corp., TMS Corp., TMS Association and TMS Corp. USA LLC.

    Patrick

      (Quote)

  93. You make some good points. Time will tell…

      (Quote)

  94. Patrick..I lost big in AVGA..just an innocent by stander who was sucked in>>>Can I retrieve my money??

      (Quote)

  95. Linda,

    Sadly, pPerhaps someday, but not for a while. In theory, the illegal Ponzi scheme AVGA is still running, and has not yet been shut down by the authorities. The math says that that is the only way to get your $$$ back. You joined a scam, but you know that by now. With luck, the authorities will shut it down, seize assets, and claw back illegal gains from the winners. That is likely a multiyear process, if previous similar cases are any guide. For reference, Google “12DailyPro Receiver” and read all the documents you can. No guarantee the AVGA process will go that way however. Also, pay attention to how the ASD case is unfolding. Clues there as well…… Finally, at some point you will be able to sue your sponsor in AVG for civil damages. They tricked you into joining an illegal Ponzi/pyramid scheme (even if they somehow did not know it was such, as your sponsor they have a higher obligation to know — and hence, heightened liability).

    Linda: Patrick..I lost big in AVGA..just an innocent by stander who was sucked in>>>Can I retrieve my money??

      (Quote)

Leave a Reply