BREAKING NEWS: Motions To Intervene Pour In

UPDATED 8:19 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) Motions to intervene in the civil forfeiture case against AdSurfDaily Inc. are pouring into U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

The motions are filed pro se and may be the result of an organized effort by an AdSurfDaily upline. The motions claim the government now owes ASD members funds seized by the U.S. Secret Service last year.

Included among the first five filers are Bruce Disner, Carol L. Rose, Lisa Koehler, Joseph Poggioreale and Jacqueline Poggioreale. It is unclear if other filings will follow.

Disner claims the government owes him $42,000; Rose claims “$140 put in + earnings”; Koehler claims $1,000; Joseph Poggioreale claims $22,000 in a filing that also includes the name Jacqueline Poggiorelae; Jacqueline Poggioreale claims $22,000 in an individual filing.

“At the time the funds were confiscated I had done nothing wrong,” the motions claim. “These funds were not only, in part, mine but the proceeds of ASD’s approximately one hundred thousand customers, contractors, employees and advertisers doing business with and for Ad Surf Daily.”

Five motions have appeared on Judge Rosemary Collyer’s docket for the August forfeiture case so far today. They are styled as motions “to Intervene and Petition to Return Wrongfully Confiscated Funds.” The motions appear to be from a litigation blueprint and blame the government for events, not ASD President Andy Bowdoin.

“This reckless action by the Government and its agents, served to terminate my living, my advertising campaign for my businesses, and my future wellbeing for both myself my family and my customers,” the motions claim.

“This reckless action has prevented me from paying my financial obligations in a timely matter and in some cases not at all,” the motions continue. “This reckless action has done irreparable damage to my reputation with my friends, family and customers and has caused me endless embarrassment and loss of my precious credibility.”

The motions point the finger of blame at prosecutors, not Bowdoin, and include a numbered list and an all-caps subhead:

AFTER ONE YEAR:

1. The U.S. Government has failed to produce any EVIDENCE of alleged wrongdoing.

2. The U.S. Government has failed to produce any WITNESSES of alleged wrongdoing.

3. The U.S. Government has failed to produce any VICTIMS of alleged wrongdoing.

4. The action was based solely on the OPINIONS of the U. S. Government agents.

5. The U.S. Government failed to notify me or any other affected parties as to the whereabouts or disposition of (my) our assets. (See Rule 983, U.S. Rules of Evidence).

“By this reckless action and reckless disregard of the law by my Government to ‘protect’ its citizens, the U.S. Government has made us victims by confiscating our assets and terminally affected our businesses’ and all but wiped away all or part of their incomes both present and future,” the motions claim.

“This reckless action by the Government has served to punish both Ad Surf Daily and its customers, contractors, employees and vendors without the benefit of a trial in a Court of Law,” the motions continue.

“This reckless action by the Government has infringed on my civil rights and my Constitutional Rights  to do business in the United States.

“I HEREBY, file this Motion and Petition to Refund my money which includes cash profits, my ad packages and any computer software databases returned forthwith.

“THEREFORE, Petitioner requests the Court to enter an Order Allowing Petitioner to Intervene and Order Authorizing the Return of the above referenced funds to Petitioner,” the motions conclude.

Collyer previously has denied a series of motions to intervene. Prosecutors have argued that the motions are delaying the establishment of a restitution pool for ASD members who certified they were crime victims.

The judge consistently has ruled that the assets seized — including tens of millions of dollars — belonged to Andy Bowdoin, not individual ASD members, and that others lacked standing to intervene in the case.

Unlike previous pro se claims, today’s claims assert that the government has a duty to refund paper profits that showed in the back offices of ASD members. Meanwhile, the motions also demand the return of ASD ad-packs — even though Bowdoin was authorized to display ads after the seizure and did not do so.

Today’s motions also appear to demand the government to return ASD’s database — although to whom was not clear. Members have said ASD itself appears to have sold the database or made it available to other users.

Some ASD members scolded Bowdoin in March, after they began to receive email pitches for a purported surf known as PaperlessAccess. In a video, Bowdoin told members PaperlessAccess was a way for them to make up losses.

People complained as recently as last week that telemarketers using the ASD database were contacting them.

Meanwhile, prosecutors said in April that Bowdoin had signed a proffer letter in the case and acknowledged that ASD was operating illegally at the time of the seizure.

Read the motion by Bruce Disner.

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26 Responses to “BREAKING NEWS: Motions To Intervene Pour In”

  1. Bruce Disner and/or his brother Todd were some of the people to profit big time in ASD. From one of the ASD fluff stories – “Todd Disner says he took some of his money out of his ASD account before the Feds seized it and was able to walk away with a hefty profit of $59,000.” I guess profiting from ASD was not good enough, now he wants to get his money back as well.

    I suspect the “evil” government lawyers are laughing their socks off at these filings.
    “The U.S. Government failed to notify me or any other affected parties as to the whereabouts or disposition of (my) our assets.” – Erm, but didn’t Andy already say that what was seized was his (Andy’s) property?

    “I HEREBY, file this Motion and Petition to Refund my money which includes cash profits, my ad packages and any computer software databases returned forthwith.” – But the money is Andy’s, there is nothing to stop Andy fulfilling the ad packages, and the software etc belongs to Andy?

    Looks like these motions will hurt Andy’s case against the forfeiture.

    I suspect the real reason for these motions is that Bruce is trying to placate his down-line. He is hoping that by filing these motions his down-line will not take him to court.

    I really hope these people are offered their day in court. I wonder what the answer will be to the question “What was the business you were advertising on ASD?”. Will the answer be some other HYIP/AutoSurf/MLM snake-oil health drink?

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  2. The whole thing is sickening. (BTW do you have a typo in the second to last paragraph?) Can’t the judge put an end to these pro se filings? otherwise this will drag on forever.

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  3. Hi saint Michael,

    saint Michael: BTW do you have a typo in the second to last paragraph?

    Thanks. Fixed.

    Patrick

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  4. Robert Cefail still sends emails to me, most recent was a facebook invite. I do not have a facebook account. Many others.

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  5. I find this quite bizarre that you have people screaming for “their” money, which is not “theirs,” those who said they made money from ASD making all these Pro SE filings, and by doing so stop the true victims of ASD from receiving “their” distribution of returned funds by the government.

    This time I hope Judge Collyer rules swiftly and firmly shutting these idiotic filings down for good. It is time to start sanctioning these Pro Se filers and making them pay hefty fines for wasting the court’s time and resources.

    Maybe the government should just keep all the money and not return any of it. Maybe it would send a message that if you participate in a criminal enterprise, you do not get your money back period. Maybe it would teach them to think before jumping into the next big scam. Besides, if the true victims don’t get all their money back, they will be crying it is not fair.

    Seems these idiots don’t want the curtain to fall on ACT III, and to let ACT IV begin. Hate to disappoint them, but ACT IV is about to start with or without them. And then it is going to get very, very I N T E R E S T I N G. I think I hear the orchestra tuning up, so get your big drink, popcorn and easy chair as ACT IV is about to begin.

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  6. Lyndell,
    Perhaps you do think that the government should keep all the money, and that saddens me. I, for one, am a true victim of ASD and A. Bowdoin. I was near the end of my rope financially, and when I was introduced to ASD I felt like there may be light at the end of a long, dark tunnel and I could finally pay my bills again and buy my 13 heart meds without skipping doses etc., etc. I had never been in an internet program, had never heard of an autosurf, and believe it or not, did not even know what a ponzi was. I put all my savings into ASD at the Tampa rally and never got to draw on it before the seizure. Was I stupid to believe, you damn bet I was. Am I a real victim, I certainly think so.
    I so wish I would have known where to look and who to listen to BEFORE I handed over that check. Obviously it is far too late for that, but I pray every hour of every day that the government returns at least some of the money. I know there are many more like me who were taken by ASD, not players, not promoters, just ordinary folks who hoped for a better financial future and was uneducated about this ugly autosurf/HYIP world.

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  7. snailspace,

    I do not think that Mr. Edgington really believes that the government should keep all of the money. Further, he thinks, as do most intelligent observers, that the government WILL provide restitution as they can (but don’t count on 100%). I think he was writing wistfully…..it is difficult to watch the insiders, profiteers, uplines, Bowdoin, etc. continue to delay the inevitable for their own purposes at your expense (and that of your fellow victims).

    I have a different plan. I believe that Mr. Disner should put his money where his mouth is. He should put his $59,000 in profits (that he extracted from victims like you and crowed about to Mike Mason) and double down his bet on ASD. $42,000 seized + $59,000 in profits + $59,000 in double down on the profits. Now, if the final ruling goes in ASD’s favor, he gets it all. Other way, he loses it all — double — to the restitution fund. Alternatively, he claims he has done nothing wrong. Great. Let him stand up like a man and demand that he share Bowdoin’s fate. If he did no wrong, and ASD wins, have the government give him back his $42,000. If the ruling goes against ASD, and eventually Bowdoin in criminal court, let Mr. Dizzy get the same sentence as Andy, and oh by the way, get clawed back on the $59,000 he has already extracted. Disner’s a crook of the highest order, intent on preventing people like you from ever getting their $$$$ back. These filings give him more time to hide his illgotten gains — bet on it. Observers are frustrated, but we’re on your side……

    snailspace: Lyndell,Perhaps you do think that the government should keep all the money, and that saddens me. I, for one, am a true victim of ASD and A. Bowdoin. I was near the end of my rope financially, and when I was introduced to ASD I felt like there may be light at the end of a long, dark tunnel and I could finally pay my bills again and buy my 13 heart meds without skipping doses etc., etc. I had never been in an internet program, had never heard of an autosurf, and believe it or not, did not even know what a ponzi was. I put all my savings into ASD at the Tampa rally and never got to draw on it before the seizure. Was I stupid to believe, you damn bet I was. Am I a real victim, I certainly think so.I so wish I would have known where to look and who to listen to BEFORE I handed over that check. Obviously it is far too late for that, but I pray every hour of every day that the government returns at least some of the money. I know there are many more like me who were taken by ASD, not players, not promoters, just ordinary folks who hoped for a better financial future and was uneducated about this ugly autosurf/HYIP world.

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  8. snailspace,

    These scams are comprised of 2 types of people.

    1. Those that know full well that it’s a scam from day one and don’t care who get hurt as long as they profit.

    2. Those that joined out of ignorance or desperation and usually lose the most. This second group are the victims.

    The only thing that grows at 125% is the profits of the scammers and promoters and the loss of the victims.

    Madoff and Bowdoin each ran Ponzi schemes. When confronted, Madoff plead guilty, has gone to prison and the case is working its way through courts. Madoff’s scheme collapsed months after ASD was raided.

    With Andy it’s a different story. First he signed his proffer, then he decided he wanted a second chance. After petitioning the court and having his request to allow him to hire a lawyer granted, he and his lawyer never bothered to file with the court as promised until given a hard deadline. Andy is delaying any way he can.

    The pro se motions of Andy, Richmond and now the highest level of promoters serves only one purpose and that is to delay the resolution of the civil litigation.

    Andy, Richmond and the insiders are only protecting themselves, or attempting to. Their motions will make no difference in the long run in my opinion but they are delaying the resolution. In the meantime, the real victims of Andy and the Insiders suffer.

    None of us “scam fighters” want the true victims to suffer but we do want those who knew full well what they were doing pay the price. In the past, the SEC has given the promoters slaps on the wrist in our opinion. The SEC settled with several larger promoters of CEP for pennies on the dollar…of their winnings. What a joke. In this case, we are hoping that the Government will come down hard on the promoters of these scam so that in the future they won’t right off a civil penalty as the cost of doing business.

    Unfortunately, you are caught up in this game and test of wills. I know that all the sympathy in the world doesn’t help you at all. But I hope you will at least see that the responsibility of the court delays lie squarely at the feet of one Andy Bowdoin, Curtis Richmond and the gang of insiders who are delaying the outcome of the civil litigation. No money will be disbursed, if any ultimately is, until this round of battles is resolved.

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  9. ANOTHER unfortunate fact is, if and when the frivolous lawsuits finally end and the receiver is able to start the clawback process, the ‘promoters’ will have spent the money and likely declare bankruptcy.

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  10. This is my favorite part of Bruce Disner’s motion:

    “This reckless action has done irreparable damage to my reputation with my friends, family and customers and has caused me endless embarrassment and loss of my precious credibility.”

    Great! I’m glad to hear it. Obviously he got his friends and family to join this scam, probably as his own downline. He deserves every bit of the humiliation he’s experiencing, and more. Aside from psychopaths who have no concept of remorse, this might actually keep a few cheerleaders from dragging their friends and family into the next scam that comes along.

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  11. I am rather confused at this point.

    1. Judge Collyer was rather explicit in her last ruling that she had had enough of the frivolous pro se filings. Why are these people risking serious consequences by filing against the government when it was Andy who caused them harm, if any was incurred?

    2. Unless the government pulled a fast one on me and I was looking under the wrong shell, it was the government vs. Andy’s bank account, the government vs. Andy’s house and the government vs. Andy’s toys. How can any of these people claim to have been harmed?

    3. The government never enjoined ASD from operating and serving up the promised advertising. People sent in all sort of petitions to the court and the DA attesting to the effectiveness of the advertising. Why didn’t Andy use this testimonials to get financing at 8% per year to keep operating? Wouldn’t that show that his business model was viable?

    Kathy: ANOTHER unfortunate fact is, if and whenthe frivolous lawsuits finally end and the receiver is able to start the clawback process, the ‘promoters’ will have spent the money and likely declare bankruptcy.

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  12. DB,

    Anything and everything to delay……

    You are right though, these filings won’t matter, except to delay restitution AND……open up these promoters/pro se filers to additional criminal charges of perjury. Note that they have now all signed a court submission, under penalty of perjury, that they had done nothing wrong as of the seizure of Andy’s assets. Let’s see, should the eventual criminal charges come forward, and Andy and company are found to have conspired to commit wire fraud, etc., then these pro se filers will find that they HAVE in fact been guilty of doing something wrong — namely, promoting an illegal enterprise that has been found to be a wire fraud operation. What a treat — they’ll be both co-conspirators AND perjurers……. Not too bright, but then we already knew that. You passive (or active) promoters of ASD out there (or AVG — take note joe and Steve Watt….) — don’t compound your crimes but filing stupid pro se filings like these. You’ll only make things worse!

    dirty_bird: I am rather confused at this point.1. Judge Collyer was rather explicit in her last ruling that she had had enough of the frivolous pro se filings. Why are these people risking serious consequences by filing against the government when it was Andy who caused them harm, if any was incurred?2. Unless the government pulled a fast one on me and I was looking under the wrong shell, it was the government vs. Andy’s bank account, the government vs. Andy’s house and the government vs. Andy’s toys. How can any of these people claim to have been harmed?……….

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  13. Hm, what an interesting development. Not necessarily surprising though. They could have, however, used a word processor and not filed court documents where they filled in their information in pencil or crayon. I laughed when they wanted the government to refund to them the value of their Ad Packs. Like Ad Packs had any value, only to Andy. Tell your mortgage company that you are sending them this month’s payment in ASD Ad Packs and see what that gets you.

    I hope Judge Collyer does a “Judge Judy” on these people. Fast and furious!!!

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  14. snailspace:

    I apologize for failing to make note my comments about the government keeping all the money was nothing more than venting frustration. I do want the “true victims” of ASD to get as much of their money back as possible, and obviously this includes you. You can sue your upline or the person who got you into ASD. Whether you do or not is up to you, but that is an option for you instead of having to wait for the government to start the refund process. This could still be a year or more away. It depends on how quickly they can determine and sort out the accounting nightmare, the sale of all the properties and water toys. These things take time. So unless the one who got you into ASD is a family member or close personal friend, then it might be worthwhile to file a law suit against them. You might be able to get your local DA to file criminal charges against them too.

    For some of us, we have dealt with these type of jerks for years. After a while, you get tired of their whining and complaining when they know ASD was a scam. I was merely venting at their attempt to buy more time to hide more money, or at least attempt to do so. And that is all this action is about. I am just surprised that more of the real “Players” and “Winners” in ASD have not joined the list of Pro Se litigants. Who knows, they still could, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.

    It is my sincere hope that this time Judge Collyer says enough is enough and starts handing down fines for these frivolous Pro Se filings plus sanctions. It would serve them right and send a strong message to others to think twice before filing, but hopefully to stop them all together.

    You (not referring to you here) can be a “victim” once in these type of scams, but the next time you know better. But when you try to claim victimhood in your 3rd or 4th scam, no-one is buying you being a victim anymore.

    This is just my opinion, but I feel the government law enforcement agencies are about to say 1st time you are a victim. The second time, sorry you should have known better and no dice at getting any money back. Just call it a ‘hunch.’

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  15. At least in my mind here’s how it plays out.

    It delays their eventual sentencing by a few weeks, if that. It delays their release from prison by a few years at the least.

    The above is just sheer speculation on my part but what purpose does it serve in the long run?

    Surely there will be sanctions for these frivolous filings and, as noted, they’ve now affixed their signatures to sworn court documents.

    Is there something these people fear more than prison and fines which makes these actions “rational” in their minds?

    Entertained: Anything and everything to delay……

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  16. I too want to see victims get back as much as possible but my beef is with the promoters who know up front about these scams. Its high time the law goes after these people with no mercy and I mean NONE. Im sick of seeing this sort of thing happen. If they would ruin a few of them financially and throw several in jail it would send a big message. I dont know if I will ever live to see that day but I want these people looking over their shoulders every minute of everyday from now on. I just think how Bob Krimm just walked away with no telling what and he has never paid any price for it along with that stupid son of his named Chris Krimm.

    I just saw a post at the auto surf authority forum of a man warning about this scam called gold nugget invest and they deleted it. Its a big scam with a lot of members and I though here we go again with another tri star media deal. If you warn you will be banned. They are enablers and something needs to be done about those places also although Im not sure if anything could be done but I hate their guts over there.

    Sorry to get off topic but my blood pressure got up and I needed to get this out of my system.

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  17. One other thing I would like to see happen is for somebody to please sue their upline. I have never heard of that happening either but people need to be aware they can. Its time to lay the smack down on these criminals.

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  18. The government doesn’t even have title to the money seized from Bowdoin. It cannot refund money to which it doesn’t have title. The forfeiture has not been perfected.

    Morever, Bowdoin has signed a proffer letter and has acknowledged multiple times ASD was operating illegally. Beyond that, he agrees with the judge AND the prosecutors that it’s HIS money, not the members’ money.

    So, Bowdoin agrees with the government that he broke the law — but the pro se filers essentially are saying the government interfered with commerce. Those points are irreconcilable because Bowdoin himself says the commerce was illegal.

    This templated approach to litigation is just plain risky. It potentially creates legal and PR problems for the filers. This is the era of Madoff. Arguments advanced by the pro se filers could not be more at odds with where the public is on the issue of Ponzi schemes. The “evil government” argument is a loser in the court of public opinion — even with out-of-control government deficits — because the word Ponzi is nuclear.

    And it SHOULD be. Ponzi = Pain.

    On another matter, nothing in the record so far suggests any of the money Bowdoin had offshore was repatriated. If any of it went down an AdViewGlobal sinkhole, he may have even fewer bargaining chips.

    Repeated use of the phrase “has failed” in the pro se filings — as in, “The U.S. Government has failed to produce any EVIDENCE of alleged wrongdoing” — is just plain disingenuous. The reason the government has produced no evidence in the court room is because the case is not at that stage. The scheduling conference that was to be held Jan. 30 was canceled because Bowdoin submitted to the forfeiture Jan. 13.

    How can claims such as “The U.S. Government has failed to produce any WITNESSES of alleged wrongdoing” and “The U.S. Government has failed to produce any VICTIMS of alleged wrongdoing” not ring hollow when the scheduling conference was dropped as a result of Bowdoin’s actions, not the actions of prosecutors?

    The government did not call any witnesses at the Sept. 30-Oct. 1 evidentiary hearing because it was not required to do so. ASD specifically requested the hearing to present its evidence and testimony on the limited issues of the Ponzi allegations and the release of emergency funds.

    Judge Collyer said no to the release of funds after considering the evidence ASD presented and listening to the testimony of ASD’s witnesses. The judge said ASD had failed to demonstrate it was a legal business and not a Ponzi scheme. Again, this hearing was held at ASD’s request and was a hearing — not a trial. The trial might have been scheduled at some point beyond Jan. 30, but Andy dropped his claims.

    No new scheduling conference can he held until the issue is decided as to whether Andy will be permitted to reopen the claims he withdrew “with prejudice,” meaning he intended never to reintroduce the claims after submitting to the forfeiture.

    But Andy did try to reintroduce his claims, despite telling the judge he would not do so. That is what slowed the case to a crawl — that and the other pro se pleadings by nonparties.

    The docket has been dominated by pro se pleadings since February. Bowdoin filed a bunch of stuff and then never followed up on the pleadings — and had to be ordered by the judge to do so when more than two months passed without a peep from Bowdoin.

    And it’s not as if the government is Andy’s only problem. He is named a defendant in a RICO lawsuit that seeks treble damages. Some ASD members believe he is a racketeer. Andy has not responded to the RICO lawsuit, which was filed more than seven months ago.

    Patrick

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  19. Thanks Lynndel and Entertained for the kind words. I know you really did not mean for any true victims to be denied any government refunds, hearing that just hit a nerve. I hope all the wheeler dealer promotors get to rot in jail in a cell next to Andy, and that can’t come soon enough!

    I do not personally know my direct upline guy. I bought something off ebay and when I received it there was a packet of info. about ASD. I thought about for a month before I contacted him for more info. I do not know how big of a player he was in it as everything was by email and a couple of phone calls. Perhaps he was a big promoter or perhaps he was like me and he had just started trying to build a downline. I mentioned to him a couple of times who his upline was but he would never really answer me, though I suspect it could have been G. Talbert. At any rate it takes money to sue, which I now have very little of, however, thanks for that info.
    I sure wish I could have met you guys sooner! Never ever heard of an autosurf before Apr. 2008, wish I never had!

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  20. I needed a break from the freak show for a few minutes and ran across this.

    Here’s some good news…about a retired South Carolina “revenuer” no less.

    http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=10987515

    “He did reveal he was an assistant supervisor for the state Revenue Department who retired in 2000.

    Jackson bought the winning Powerball ticket worth $259,900,000 last week at a Murphy’s USA gas station on Garners Ferry Road, but waited nearly a week to come forward.

    “It’s a beautiful day in South Carolina,” he said Tuesday. “It’s a beautiful day for education.”

    Jackson said he is a big supporter of higher education, and bought the ticket merely to contribute toward education in the state.

    “I thought, ‘why can’t I just throw away two dollars to help education in South Carolina?'” he said. “Only God knows what’s ahead.”

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  21. saint Michael: The whole thing is sickening. (BTW do you have a typo in the second to last paragraph?) Can’t the judge put an end to these pro se filings? otherwise this will drag on forever.

    Mate, as a long term observer of these “things” I gotta tell ya’ “you ain’t seen nuttin,’ yet”

    Any “normal” law abiding citizen whose only exposure to the legal system and how it works is watching “Law and Order,” “LA Law” or Perry Mason is gonna be absolutely gobsmacked if this plays out as have previous ponzi prosecutions.

    If you look back over the time since AdSurf Daily and Bowdoin first arrived, you’ll see the “usual suspects” among the anti HYIP “naysayers” predicting possible time spans of 4 to 5 years (plus) until final resolution.

    Now, perhaps, people may be starting to realize just how and why such an outcome is possible.

    If anyone thinks “this” is bad, just wait until the case actually makes it into a courtroom.

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  22. LRM,

    It the ASD case goes only half the way to letting people know the kind of people who start, run and promote these autosurf and associated schemes, it will do us all a favour. It will make it far harder for the next bunch to get their schemes off the ground.

    Having fallen hook line and sinker for ASD in its early days and believing that it was a far cry from the cynical, cult style of the MLM “network marketing” world, it came as quite a shock to find out the kind of people and lack of business ethic or any other kind of ethics that were behind the shady autosurf world players.

    At best it would be good see three things come out of the ASED case

    1. The prosecution of more than just the owners and immediate inner circle, to include the players who make these operations so successful

    2. A change in legislation to more adecuately cover the realities of this form of cyber crime

    3. Firm action against the enablers of these schemes – including payment processors who accept their business for “additional fees”, which they all do with the exception of paypal, and the owners of the endless online forums that recommend these opportunities and imply their legality.

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  23. Alasycia, please don’t get me wrong,

    My statement is in no way to be seen as anything other than a warning of what’s likely to happen.
    The situation is as it is.
    As sad as it is, I see no point sugar coating or holding out false hope to those for whom this is their first time round the block with these fraudsters.

    As much as I applaud the actions of the Secret Service, IRS and FBI in the way they’ve taken “autosurfs” out of the realms of being fairly benign “securities violators” and placed ASD and Bowdoin where they belong, as large scale fraudsters and money launderers.
    To date, I have seen little or no increase in the political will for change necessary to implement your wish list of further desirable outcomes.

    I suppose, in these post Madoff times, we can but live in hope.

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  24. We can also make our voices heard. But that takes organization and persistence.

    littleroundman: I suppose, in these post Madoff times, we can but live in hope.

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  25. LRM, Whatever happens in the ASD case, I still have a feeling that the courts are going to take the roles of many involved far more seriously than they have with 12DP and CEP etc as far as the players are concerned. I am optimistic enough to think that there is a slow awakening on the part of the qauthorities as to what these schemes really involve and the enormous amount of money that passes through them, with little or no control.

    A change in legislation is a hope or a dream that may be a long way off, but we should certainly see some useful legal precedents come out of the ASD case that will help future prosecutions.

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  26. It is all a farce including the government’s complicity (smile)

    If no one ever buys McDonald’s burgers again, McDonald will NOT go out of business.

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