EDITORIAL: Guenther Should Step Down From ASDMBA
Accusations against Andy Bowdoin, president of AdSurfDaily, led to the creation of the ASD Members Business Association (ASDMBA). ASDMBA members sought to make sure their legal interests were addressed in the ASD case.
UPDATED 4:03 P.M. EDT (March 27, U.S.A.) Bob Guenther should resign from the ASD Members Business Association (ASDMBA). Guenther is the de facto head of the ASDMBA Trust. People who contributed money to the Trust believing their legal interests in the AdSurfDaily case would be served have not been served well.
ASDMBA members report they have been denied transparent accounting by Guenther of how the Trust spent money it collected to represent their interests. Guenther did not tell ASDMBA members about his 1994 felony conviction for bank fraud. The questions about Guenther’s management of the Trust were raised before members knew about the conviction.
Some ASDMBA members now say they would not have contributed to the Trust had they known about Guenther’s felony record. Members want to know precisely what happened to their Trust contributions. Guenther is not telling them.
In fact, Bob Guenther is threatening to sue people who raise the issue. Some members said Guenther told them if they wanted the information, they were going to have to sue to get it.
Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott should investigate the Trust. A claim was made that Guenther had Abbott’s private phone number. Such a claim can be construed to mean that Guenther was trading on Abbott’s name without authorization to minimize the number of complaints the state might receive about the Trust.
Abbott should not let this stand. He should investigate immediately.
Guenther, a Texan, has been charged in Arizona with two felony counts of aggravated harassment. Police said he repeatedly violated a court order not to harass an Arizona business.
The Arizona charges are reason enough for Guenther to resign from the Trust. As its de facto head, he has a duty not to bring discredit to it and to work responsibly with members. This cannot occur under a cloud of suspicion in an atmosphere of threats.
Meanwhile, federal and state investigators should seek to determine if a group of Texas police retirees somehow received preferential treatment in the ASD case through ASDMBA. It is possible that any preferential treatment was accidental and occurred with the best of intentions.
There are assertions that a police group joined Golden Panda Ad Builder, a company that is part of the ASD litigation, and that funds contributed by the group were intercepted and returned before becoming part of a common victim’s pool prosecutors hope to create.
Federal prosecutors hope to fund the pool by liquidating bank accounts and property seized by the U.S. Secret Service last year. No victim should get preferential treatment — not even a police fund. If funds from police retirees were intercepted and returned to the group, the funds should be returned to the pool to create a level playing field.
Guenther also needs to explain fully why posts associated with identities he uses at two forums have gone missing. Lost with the posts were dates, times and details that may be important to investigators — and even to Guenther himself. One of the deleted posts made the claim that Guenther had Abbott’s private phone number.
Guenther claimed forum deletions at the ASD-Biz forum were made because someone had intercepted his password and that an imposter had posted under his identity. The deletions, however, also might have wiped away Guenther’s best evidence that an imposter had been posting under his name.
Included in deletions at Scam.com were references to posts purportedly made from Mexico. Here is a screen shot of one of the Scam.com posts, under an identity associated with Guenther: “USMCSemperfi.” This shot has been reduced to fit within the borders of this Blog.
'USMCSemperfi' at Scam.com tells readers on March 9 that he is in Mexico. The screen shot also captures part of a posting below from a member posting as Zhiroc. Similar claims of posts from Mexico also were made at the ASD-Biz forum, under an identity associated with Bob Guenther.
Why a person using known Bob Guenther forum identities would claim in two forums to have been posting from Mexico — and why those posts would go missing — is unclear. What is clear is that the posts were made in the days immediately prior to criminal charges being filed against Guenther in Arizona.
In a March 16 email to this Blog, Guenther claimed he had not been in Mexico in years.
“I have not been in Mexico since August 2003. Anyone that actually knows me, also knows why,” he wrote.
Other deleted posts at Scam.com made references to Guenther’s business interests in Mexico. Here is a screen shot of back-to-back Scam.com posts under the “USMCSemperFi” identity. This shot has been reduced to fit within the borders of this Blog.
USMCSemperFi references Mexico business interests at Scam.com and also highlights the Marine Corps. Bob Guenther is a former Marine.
These are important matters, especially to ASDMBA members. They deserve to know what happened to their money, and they should be able to raise the questions in an environment free of threat.
Bob Guenther should leave ASDMBA. He should stop making threats, and Greg Abbott should enter this case to add clarity and ensure that public trust does not become a casualty of this incredibly toxic environment.
Patrick,
Well said! I was unaware of the Golden Panda preferential treatment case, as I suspect other ASDMBA members are as well. Interesting how we have been folded into one “association” according to the ASDMBA web site. Hm.
Thanks for another great editorial!
Roxy
The scam.com posts are not gone, I have mod priviledges there and I could go back and get them, I wouldn’t do it just ofr the heck of it, but if some official reason came up it can be done.
what theread was that in, BTW?
Hi Gregg,
The posts formerly were in this thread:
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?p=737358
Google cache is here:
http://74.125.93.104/search?q=cache:Zh3OrpOlpogJ:www.scam.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D114612+scam.com+usmcsemperfi&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Patrick
I recall that before the separate GP MBA was formed, there was a lot of talk that Clarence Busby was returning checks. Several people went to their offices and collected checks before Clarence did his “about turn” and handed the rest of the money over the Government.I believe Bob G was one of them, though there were several others who went on their own account.
AFTER this Clarence withdrew his claims to the seized monies in the BoA. I dont know where the rest of the monies were banked, but an ex GP member will probably be able to tell you.
And on the main topic of your Editorial. Yes Bob G should indeed resign as the ASDMBA Trustee and the ASDMBA. We joined a four trustee trust, none of which was Bob G and ended up with Bob who coopted himself into the controlling position.
As it must be clear, even to him, that he is NOT a welcome choice of the ASDMBA members, it would be intelligent and prudent to hit the high road.
A true Journalist will always pen his editorial with his or her name. I see the name “ADMIN” as the author of this “editorial”, and for good reason I suspect. It contains half truths, partial tidbits of internet postings and conversations, none of which are authenticated, some of which have been edited, tape and pasted and reposted. Curiously, the ONLY non edited, original piece of information you have concerning me, other than public records, is the PDF file I sent you. And that PDF file is buried in a column you wrote that briefly outlined the FACTS of my past felony then convienently accessed only by clicking to a link..
So I must conclude your internet blog is rather like TMZ. A collage of part/time rookie one-day soon to be journalists or college age students, who scroll the internet looking for some sensational stories you can post, with your own “LIBERAL” spin, so you can drive as many “hits” to your site as possible. That of course, increases your business and your revenue. I have absolutely no problem with that, but I am ALWAYS suspect of information spread to the public by a unknown author, who wishes to remain anonymous and goes by the name PATRICK PRETTY.. Especially when the information posted is inaccurate or not thoroughly researched..
Now I took football, drag racing and girls in High School, not typing..I have people to do that for me, BUT in this day of the computer/internet/texting etc I have got pretty good at hunt and pecking, but it still takes me much longer to respond to all this rediculous crap, plus I do have a large family to support and father to and I do work for a living, but eventually I get around to you there “Patrick”…
First , for clarity, you keep refering to the ASDMBA as a “TRUST”. This association was not formed as a formal Texas “TRUST”. No representation to that effect have ever been made. It is a simple association, formed with a set of self imposed administration guidelines. When formed, in September 2008, the ASDMBA immediately obtained a Professional Liability Errors and Omissions Insurance Policy with a major insurance underwriter, to protect the right of the contributors and of the trustees alike. That policy remains in force today.
If anyone has any VALID complaint about the administration of the ASDMBA, the disbursement or use of the funds, or any other questions not answered, then they should get a lawyer, file suit, and Ill turn it over to our insurance company.
I have posted an accounting of the uses of contributions on our website. http://www.asdmba.com. It has been posted since November 2008 and has been updated three times to reflect reciepts and disbursements through mid January 2009. Only a few contributions have been made since then, and a handful of checks issued..If you would allow PDF attachments while leaving a note, I would attach the accounting, instead I will send it to you under seperate cover as I did the last PDF file..That is the only accounting that will be supplied, until the final disposition of the ASDMBA pursuit of ASD Members money.
Regarding my travels within the USA,and to what other country, when and if it occured, and with whom I traveled, are none of anyone’s business, unless of course Im on your nickle.
Regarding my business interest in Mexico, it is a well known fact throughout the State of Sonora Mexico, Mexico City, the Mexican Government during the Vincente Fox regime, State of Arizona, and in Washington DC what project I was working on in Mexico from 2000-2003, and why I had to abandon the project, liquidate all assets, return a nice profit to the International Hedge Fund that was backing the project, and return to Dallas. Why not nose around and fimd out, since you have such investigative expertise..
Regarding the “FELONY” you say I have been charged with in Mesa, AZ, again “rookie” journalism and lack of knowledge, or an intentional statement made to discredit me by the author, or a combination of both could be the reason for this statement. The erroneous and false accusation was made against me two months AFTER the original WorkPlace Harrassment Suit was summararily dismissed without prejudice,again, I can send you a PDF of that dismissal.
The “evidence” that is supposedly submitted to the District Attorney is a short tape recording, illegally obtained thru a tapped line at CME, AND the message was not directed to Whiting, but the Michael Rafford, Corporate Counsel CME, or should I say FORMER Corporate Cousel, he has just resigned within the last two weeks..Fully compliant with the provisions of the Order. This will be thrown out as well at the hearing or before.
Once again, before you post erroneous and improper information simply for sensationalism to your biasd readers, get your facts right, Journalism 101…
1) There is NO ASD Litigation at this time
2) Panda ASDMBA was formed as a seperate entity, The only relationship with thw ASDMBA, until Andy threw in the towel, was that certain Members of ASD were also members of Panda. The active duty and retired police officers who I was able to retrieve some money for invested in Panda. If you really knew the facts of the case, which it is obvious from your comments you don’t, you would know that the assets of Golden Panda were not directly seized and their offices were never raided. Mr Busby, under pressure from me and the ASDMBA, returned over $1.5M in uncashed cashiers checks to the rightful owners. He then proceeded to deposit several million in two different bank accounts. One account he turned over to the Feds, about $9M from what the William Cowden AUSA told me during my meeting in Washington DC last year. The other account, despite my emails and telephone calls telling Cowden exactly where the money was located, was closed and Busby made off with a couple of million to the Carribean, where he promptly opened up another advertising scam..
3)The Feds who raided the ASD headquarters,upon finding over $35Million in uncashed cashiers check, should have ordered the return of the uncashed checks to the rightful owners,
there is much more, but thats for another day in court..
Finally, there are two voluntary Trustee’s serving on the Board, all others, tiring of all the ungrateful BS from less than 1% of the members,m have resigned and moved on. Nothing would make me happier than to resign and shed myself of this albatros, BUT I told the ASDMBA I would ride it our to the end, and I will…..
Hopefully Mr Friedman will continue to represent the ASDMBA, without compensation, as he has done for the last 90 days or so, and the other Trustee, Kenneth deVolpi, will not resign..
Now I fiully expect you to print this entire answer, without edit,
that would only be fair, correct??
Bob Guenther 3/26/09
Perhaps Patrick should sign his writings as “Maria”?
I suppose if anyone would recognize a “half truth”, it would surely be Bob. I question that he could not type that many sentences without ranting, so I’m not sure if this was written by Guenther or one of his paid lackies. After all, Bob hires people to type for him.H esaid so, and we all know we can take Bob at his word. Right…..
Bob:
Well in regard to your comment regarding the checks that were in the office of ASD when raided should have been returned is not true. They were “evidence,” and as such could not be returned to the parties that issued them. They were also seized in a raid on an illegal activity, which means to return them would give them precendent/priority over others who were victims of the ASD Ponzi. Now there is a whole lot more than could be said about this, but those two facts alone are reasons enough for the checks not being returned.
In regard to the tone of the rest of your post, it is a lame attempt at claiming, to quote from the song Charlie Brown, “Why is everybody picking on me?” mantra. It doesn’t fly here or anywhere else for that matter.
As far as your other comments about Patrick, you forget it is “his” blog, not yours. You might consider putting your brain in gear before your mouth in motion.
Bob,
Would you be so kind as to furnish the readers with the names and departments of employment of the “active duty” police officers you referenced in your post of March 19, 2009?
It may help your case if people can independently collaborate regarding your claims, from a trusted source, without having to sign up for websites that may in turn flood their inboxes with advertising.
Henry Higgins
Quoting Bob from above:
“First , for clarity, you keep refering to the ASDMBA as a “TRUSTâ€. This association was not formed as a formal Texas “TRUSTâ€. No representation to that effect have ever been made.”
Me: You and your website have always referred to the ASDMBA as a trust. Now if you are telling us it isn’t a trust then I submit you have been deliberately deceiving people for a long time. Before you started replying to requests for information with “sue me” you used to favor employing some variation of “the trust agreement forbids me from revealing that information without a vote of the members.” Further the initial requests for donations featured the term “IOLTA Trust” is the solicitations. I believe that has a specific legal meaning and pertains only to legal trusts. Proof of my ILOTA claim:
http://www.thejoyluckclub.com/asd/Friedman.pdf
Bob:
“I have posted an accounting of the uses of contributions on our website. http://www.asdmba.com. It has been posted since November 2008 and has been updated three times to reflect reciepts and disbursements through mid January 2009.”
Me: I do not recall any accounting, even the vague and unsubstantiated pdf you currently have on your site being available in November. If I recall the current pdf was unavailable until about the time of your first confrence call of this year in early January. Perhaps others can comment on this. Further the accounting, such as it is, ends on 13-31-08, not mid January as you claim.
Bob:
“Regarding the “FELONY†you say I have been charged with in Mesa, AZ, again “rookie†journalism and lack of knowledge, or an intentional statement made to discredit me by the author, or a combination of both could be the reason for this statement. The erroneous and false accusation was made against me two months AFTER the original WorkPlace Harrassment Suit was summararily dismissed without prejudice,again, I can send you a PDF of that dismissal.”
Me: https://patrickpretty.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bobguenthermaricopacountyharassment.pdf
Two felony charges are pending against you sir. I just checked the Maricopa county website and they still show charges pending. Your attack on Patrick’s professionalism does far more to discredit you than him.
Bob:
“Once again, before you post erroneous and improper information simply for sensationalism to your biasd readers, get your facts right, Journalism 101…”
Me: Read my above reply again.
Bob:
“1) There is NO ASD Litigation at this time”
Me: Wrong again Bob. There are several motions regrading ASD that are currently pending. It’s just that NONE of them were filed by the ASDMBA.
Bob:
“Now I fiully expect you to print this entire answer, without edit,
that would only be fair, correct??”
Me: I assume he has? Now, when will you answer the ASDMBA members questions?
Sorry, March 26, 2009. My error.
No, just my assistant, maria Pelton.. You must home office, right??
Okay, let’s don’t take Patrick’s word for anything. Let’s see what a federal bankruptcy court judge has to say. The Guenthers were sued in federal bankruptcy court by a company that buys unpaid debt and aggressively seeks payment. Here is how the Judge described the Guenthers actions when he denied their request to discharge the debt via bankruptcy.
“…there are grounds to deny discharge [of bankruptcy] based on the pattern of fraudulent intent by the Guenthers. They have shown an inability to be truthful or complete in their disclosures prior to and during the bankruptcy process.
“… thwarted the discovery and disclosure process in every encounter
“Obvious game playing…â€
On every occasion [the Guenthers] withheld some information
“… disruptive pattern…â€
Blatant discrepancies
Possessed fraudulent intent when making false oaths
04-03734 – The Cadle Company, Inc. v. Guenther et al
Lead Case: 04-80268 – Robert Lee Guenther and Brecca-Preston Guenther
http://www.txnb.uscourts.gov/opinions/pdf/2004-3734-55.pdf
I’ve had some time to re-read your explanation and to think about it, and it appears to me that you, Bob, in essence were running what could be called a ponzi scheme yourself. You took loans secured by collateral in the form of used cars, when you sold the cars, you didn’t pay off the loan associated with that car with that money. That was illegal. Your claim that the S&L involved knew full well what you were doing doesn’t change the fact that it was illegal, only that they were in on the scam. It was precisely this kind of illegal inside deals without a good business foundation that first caused the S&L crisis in the first place, so while you may see it as an unfortunate circumstance I only see criminal conduct that indirectly caused taxpayers billions of dollars. And it does not seem to be a “timing issue” as the underlying debt was still unpaid it looks like several years later. Another way of saying what you yourself have said is that you put worthless IOUs in the kitty and when the government stepped in, there wasn’t any money to back them.
Now, my view could as well be called my own opinion, and you can even say I’m putting the worse possible spin on it, but the fact remains, you were after all convicted of a felony, you were charged with 10 counts that were dropped in a plea agreement. That’s the facts, Jack.
As to the Panda members who you claim to have retrieved money for, I can see the possibility of that being a felony, from a legal point of view you may have obstructed justice to get certain persons what may be preferential payments and if Panda ends up in a bankruptcy proceeding, I can imagine the court will require those monies be returned to the bankruptcy estate and anyone involved in the payments could even face criminal charges, bank fraud (if the checks were drawn on FDIC insured funds) and a list of other charges. You may have admitted something there Bob that you’ll come to regret, but hey, you can’t miss a chance to blow your own horn.
bob, you’re what the British would call a bore, it’s time for you to go.
I will call the organizer of the group, a female Irving Texas Police officer and ask her permission, among the group were active and retired officers from Texas and and California.
I was able to secure a medium 5 figure return of funds for Joe Shoop, author of the Breakfast Club, also secured a check for a high profile Dallas Cowboy executive.. I dont think any of these three would mind me mentioning their name, I will ask..
I was able to secure a medium 5 figure return of funds for Joe Shoop, author of the Breakfast Club, also secured a check for a high profile Dallas Cowboy executive..
The High Court decision of G & M Aldridge Pty Ltd v Walsh confirms that payments to unsecured creditors out of assets covered by a floating charge to a secured creditor may be recovered as preferential payments.
Thanks for providing the list Bob, the people who are really trying to get refunds legally will glad to hear there’s more money available to recover.
Gregg:
You would think that Bob would realize that you don’t put both feet in your mouth because you won’t have a leg to stand on.
Actually, any trustee has a veritable arsenal of legal weaponry which can be easily brought to bear in such matters, most noteably:
1) Actual Fraud under 11 U.S.C. §548(a)(1)(A)
(the trustee need only prove that the transfer was made with the actual intent to hinder, delay or defraud the debtor’s creditors)
and/or
2) Constructive Fraud under 11 U.S.C. §548(a)(1)(B)
(the trustee must establish that the debtor: (1) received less than reasonably equivalent value in exchange for the transfer and (2) was insolvent, was made insolvent by the transaction, was operating or about to operate without property constituting reasonably sufficient capital OR WAS UNABLE TO PAY DEBTS AS THEY BECAME DUE) Which, in the case of a ponzi, is from the inception of the scheme
3)Preferential Transfers
The trustee can also sue investors for recovery of preferential transfers. A preferential transfer is defined by §547 of the Bankruptcy Code. Under the Code, a trustee can recover as a preference any transfer of an interest of the Ponzi-scheme operator in property within the 90-day period prior to the fling of the Ponzi scheme operator’s bankruptcy case if the transfer was made:
a. to or for the benefit of a creditor;
b. for or on account of an antecedent debt;
c. while the Ponzi scheme operator was insolvent; and
d. such that it enabled the investor (creditor) to receive more than would have been received by the investor as an unsecured creditor in a liquidation of the Ponzi scheme operator’s estate under chapter 7 of the Bankruptcy Code.
“First , for clarity, you keep refering to the ASDMBA as a “TRUSTâ€. This association was not formed as a formal Texas “TRUSTâ€.”
Than Bob has lied and lied and lied to all the ASDMBA members from the start. It is totally irrelevant in any material way HOW he manipulates the facts and legalities of the situation. Money was sent to Friedman & Feiger and later to the ASDMBA on the understanding that it was being placed in a trust account to be used to gain the ASDMBA standing in Court in the ASD case. Full Stop.
It now appears, from the mouth of our very own “trustee”, that NEITHER was done as the Trust itself didnt even exist.
Whatever spin you want to put on the “legaleez” THAT looks like a big FRAUD.
And of course, if this is NOT true and the Trust does exist – then he is lying now. It looks like Every Which Way But Win on the Truth stakes here.
Just to clarify.
My post regarding the powers available to a “trustee” refers to the powers available to a trustee/receiver/administrator of a failed ponzi such as the Busby/Golden Panda/La Fuentes ponzi scam in dealing with any “preferential payments” like those supposedly organised by Blowhard Bob.
Any such “refunds” given leading up to OR after Busbys’ capitulation are subject to “clawbacks” under one or all of the listed regulations.
My comments do NOT have anything to do with Blowhard or Friedmans’ apparent misappropriation of ASDMBA money/s.
hey! looks like we finally got Bob to shut up!
Call the press
No actually Gregg, unlike you people I actually have a full day, starting at 4am, when I get up, have a quick energy drink, then go workout from 5am- 6:15am or so, come home shower, have breakfast then usually start my business day about 7:30am.. Unlike probably you, I dont walk from room to room in my shorts, or sit in a cubicle, or post while on someone else’s time, I ACTUALLY LEAVE my computer and do my business, most of which requires a face to face.
I know this type of work is hard for most of you internet dependent people to comprehend, but believe it or not, most legitimate, big business is done in the boardroom, cardroom, wharever room, but it is face to face.. So, I dont carry my laptop under my arm 24/7, rather I try to check in when I have a little downtime and make a post here and there, just so I can continue to be entertained..
Waiting for a couple of clients right now, but after dinner and I get home, Ill come on and set you and your 3-4 other pen pals straight..
I do appreciate Patrick Pretty not editing my response, most other forums edit out what they dont like.. We may not agree but I have been given a fair chance to post my side, so Ill continue to do so, just check back later tonight..
Don’t bother Bob, it’s getting ot be embarrasing.
You sound like a cheap imitation of hte jack Nicholson character in A Few Good Men
“I get up at 4 Am and eat two communists for breakfast, go out on the compound and psitol whip a liberal, then go drive down to the unemployment office to berate people lad off when the car dealer they worked for got caught diddling money with a corrupt S&L and got shut down. Then I go into my office, though even though I don’t seem to have any actual employement beyond running organizations to help people get moeny back from fruads, and of course joining frauds m’self, I have a staff of 13 personal assistants (3 of them just for my hair!) who run around in circles looking busy, Maria who posts things on the internet for me and one guy whose sole job is to walk in front of me holdind a full length mirror for me to look at the most magnificent thing I’ve ever seen (ME!) all day long. Occaisonally I have to “get tough” with some rookies, and get indicted for it, I have to kleep up on my plans with my buddy larry, and then, and only then, do I have time to come here and deal with all the things in my past you people keep insisting on digging up.”
No one will miss you Bob, so go ahead and go away….
In 1853 a West Point Cadet was sent to the Office of Superintendent Robert E Lee for punishment. The young man was quite high strung and when Lee came in he noticed the Casdet was quite agitated. Seeking to calm him down, Lee told the boy, “You need not worry, you will recieve only justice and fairness here”.
The young cadet replied, “I am aware of that Col Lee, that’s why I’m so scared”
Be afraid Bob, be very afaied.
Oh, and I let Bill Cowden know about your getting all that money back for the people you claimed to help. Tell them not to spend it just yet. And finally, your earlier comment about the Panda funds not being included etc… in the first siezure is absolutely wrong…
the In rem suit names “All funds, including approximately $53 million, held on deposit at bank of America in the names of
snip
Clarence Busby Jr and Dawn Stowers DBA Golden Panda Ad builder and (3)Golden Panda Ad Builder”
So while they didn’t come up and pick it up, any money Golden Panda Ad Builder had in their possession on August 5th, 2008, is clearly included in the money arrested in rem, and any movement of that money is clearly in violation of the law. You might be in a lot more trouble with this one, Bob, you have publicaly admitted you helped some people steal over a million dollars from money that should have been distributed to ALL the panda invcestors, not just the ones you got to pay you to get it for.
On one hand some of the people Bob cajoled money out of are wondering if there is any civil or criminal remedy against what they see as his lies and malfeasance, who are justifiably livid that he refuses to even provide a full accounting for the money that was contributed and spent but achieved nothing. On the other hand there are a very few people who Bob claims to have actually helped and they’ll have to return that money to the government. I suddenly understand how he could’ve been sued that astounding number of times.
Irving, TX. Oh dear, I do not have pleasant memories of that town.
Jonathan Parr was based there, and his legacy is still harming
economies and society throughout the world.
The FBI should talke a long look at Robert Guenther has been doing to members of ASD. It only takes a few complantes.
Wow. A handful of people causing you this much trouble Bob? Seriously, you should just ignore a couple negative nancies for the crying babies that they are.
Negative Nancies: You should have done your homework before you jumped on board. Besides 1944? So a person get’s no forgiveness for making a mistake and learning from it 60 YEARS AGO? Your point would have merit if there were additional fraud and felony convictions through the years.