REPORTS: James W. Von Brunn, White Supremacist And Conspiracy Theorist, Opens Fire In Holocaust Museum
Not long ago, James W. von Brunn challenged Barack Obama’s citizenship, one of the core qualifications to hold the office of President of the United States.
In 1981, von Brunn accused the Federal Reserve Board of “treason,” showing his displeasure by wielding a sawed-off shotgun, pistol and knife at board headquarters, threatening members and claiming to have planted a bomb.
His goal, he said later, was to place board members under “legal” arrest, but he was thwarted by police, prosecutors and judges who didn’t understand the law. Other judges who didn’t understand the law later denied his appeal.
He served six and one-half years in prison.
Today, von Brunn, 88, walked into the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., opened fire with a gun described as having a long barrel and shot a security guard. The guard later died.
Other guards opened fire on von Brunn, a white supremacist, antiSemite and conspiracy theorist. He is being treated at a hospital and is listed in critical condition.
Too bad the Nazi didn’t die and the guard will never see his family again. What a shame.
A shameful occurrence which has been reported internationally and has shocked the world. It is a tragedy that people like Von Braun exist and they do.
Never have I seen a better argument for gun control. What on earth was a an extremist fanatic in developed western democracy doing with a gun in the first place?.
Von Braun’s history is repulsive to most of us. It is time that the US brought their white supremacists and other right wing fanatics under control. They are just as evil as any other domestic terrorists.
Digging a little deeper we find out a few additional facts about this nutcase. He was a jew-hater, he hated both Bushes, he hated McCain, he hated neocons, he hated Republicans and he believed that 911 was an inside job conpiracy. His beliefs are more aligned with the far left if anything.
Wasn’t it President Obama who just recently compared the Holocaust to what the Israelis are doing, supposedly, in Gaza? President Obama has a lot of friends that are Jew haters. Jeremiah Wright made news just yesterday by saying “them Jews” will not let him speak to Barack. he said, “I won’t be able to speak to Barack until five years into his presidency or eight years into it, ’cause “them Jews” won’t let me speak to him and won’t let him speak to me.” Obama runs in a very sick circle. He listened to Jeremiah Wright’s anti-Jew, anti-American sermons for 20 years. President Obama is using race as he did in his selection of his first Supreme Court nominee. He is dividing this nation in every way possible. That is the tactic of an authoritarian and a statist. He is opening dialogue with Iran. Iran is run by Jew-hating nut jobs who deny the Holocaust, yet they insist on unleashing another one. While denying the Holocaust, Mahmoud Achmadinejad, to whom Barack Obama wants to speak without preconditions, is promising another Holocaust.
What kind of message does that send throughout the nation and the world, when we are willing to sit down and talk without preconditions to somebody who has sworn numerous times to wipe out Israel? The anti-Jew rhetoric in this country today comes from the American left and from the circle of people that are close to Barack Obama.
I think it might be difficult for people who have not grown up in America, studied our Constitution and understand that America’s exceptionalism does not come from it’s people, we are just like all the other people in the world. America’s exceptionalism comes from our form of Government based on the Constitution and the Declaration of Indepenendence to which the right to bear arms is fundamental. However even beyond it’s unconstitutionality, gun control has proven to take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens but keep them in the hands of criminals.
I think you will find, researching von Brunn’s background, that, as a white supremacist, his hatred of the Republican party, as with others of his ilk, has more to do with that party’s support for Israel,the Jewish membership of the party and its presence in big business, than any socialist leanings.
Equally, the Presidents speech to which you refer did not say, nor imply exactly what you wrote about Israel or the holocaust references. It has been internationally applauded and was a very courageous and astute call for solutions in the Middle East which protect both the integrity of the Jewish AND the Palestinian States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html
It’s worth a read
I think it should be borne in mind by anyone reading the last but one diatribe that it was written and posted by a woman who describes the serial scam promoter and ponzi pimp, Steve Watt, as a man of integrity. She also describes herself as a Christian.
Pistol, I think she is Jewish.
My mistake if she is. Perhaps I am getting confused with her talk of God and so on and assumed she was Christian.
At any rate she seems to be religious and that isn’t entirely compatible with her support for the serial scammer and thief, Watt.
Pistol, I think s Steve’s involvement in BAS is alarming and your crtiticisms of him for that are valid. Because you brought my attention to it I have come to question the integrity of someone who would promote that, not having really researched it myself but based on what you all have said. I cannot vouch for the integrity of someone who promotes BAS.
Alasycia, please don’t tell me the NYT is a news source for you? They are a mighty fine soldier in the army of left wing liberal media. It is common knowledge that the mainstream media is liberally biased. Certainly OK to read them but where do you go to get the other side of the story, because I promise you the NYT is going to give you only one side. For example the media had a hay day with the murder in DC and the murder of 3rd term abortionist George TIller, but how much outrage and coverage did they give to the American turned Muslim who gunned down a US Army soldier and recruiter in Arkansas? Did that make the front page, Chris Mathews, Anderson Cooper and the gang on MSNBC? The media, chris Mathews and the like were almost gleeful to claim that the murderer in DC was influenced by the hate spewed by conservative talk show hosts (which isn’t even true) but they were hypocritically silent to say that the killer in Arkansas was influenced by the hatred of extremist Islam.
I stand by what I said as factual with the exception that my quote of Jeremiah Wright was off a bit but still accurate in its meaning.
This murderer in DC, I doubt was influenced by anything other than his own mental illness. That said, it is not helpful when a political party and a president and leaders of Congress engage in a very dangerous political game that creates anxiety, hostility, and downright hate among its citizens. The left runs our government. It is creating a very dangerous climate,on purpose, in order to distract us so that they can accomplish their socialistic aims. This DC murderer, thought that 9/11 was an inside job. That’s a left-wing conspiracy theory. He didn’t like neocons. Neocons are Jews. It’s a code word for Jews, Republican Jews who are big on American foreign policy. He hated them. Where did that come from? Who created the term “neocon”? The left!
Who has been preaching hate for eight years? Who has been doing movies about assassinating the president, writing books about it? The left! This guy in DC, he had a lot of affection for the German national socialists. That’s the left wing. Hitler was a leftist. This guy if he was influenced by anyone was influenced by the hatred and division being incited by the Deomcrats, Obama and their accomplices in the media not by conservative talk show hosts as Mathews, Cooper and Oberman among others were so happy to report.
“the German national socialists. That’s the left wing. Hitler was a leftist.”
You are more than a little confused m’dear. Keep taking the pills.
Saint Michael,
Steve does more than just being “involved” with BAS. He actively promotes it and posts in several places that it is the latest and greatest, most “legal” program (i.e. SCAM) going. He has even offered to be a moderator on the BAS ning site. Scary…….and no surprise he was a big early ASD supporter. His current anti-ASD stand, in view of his promotion of the BAS Ponzi, marks him as someone who is only now against ASD since it’s clear ASD is dead — and in doing so, he is trying to gain credibility as to his ability to spot a scam so as to suck new victims into his latest scam — BAS. He has also not denied this allegation…..
Entertained, sad to hear it and I certainly don’t support it.
Pistol, take a course in diplomacy. I can tolerate your opinion but your insults are not productive, and (IMO) diminish the value of your posts.
You don’t think it is insulting to someone like me, who has decidedly left wing political views (some might say extreme) to be told that the German National Socialists ( who later became the Nazis) and Hitler had the same political leanings as myself or anyone else so inclined?
No I don’t because the discussion is about ideas not about you personally.
If you actually looked at Hitlers economic programs, or to a certain extent his social program, you would see that most if not all of those ideas aren on the ideological left in the American context. (European terms for right and left wing may be different than the American context, I am not sure, but I think they are similar). I am not saying left wing liberals are racist or anti semite like Hitler was, but neither was Mussolini or Franco, yet their idealogy leaned toward Socialism which in America lies to the left (which is why they were praised by prominent leftists like George Bernard Shaw). Hitler, incidentally, got some of his racist ideology from the writings of American “progressives” in the eugenics movement (also from Darwin).
Conservatism (considered right wing), I mean belief in free markets, limited government, and traditional morality, including religious influences, these are all things that the Fascists opposed just as much as the left does today. But hey, if your offended that someone would call fascists left wing then at least you could understand that people are offended that the left wing liberal media is trying to position the DC killer and the Abortionist Tiller’s murderer as extreme right wing, when they are not.
When one brings personal comments about anothers mental health, especially when they have no truth to base it on, into a discussion of ideas, they reduce it to an emotional response rather than a comparison of ideas. So rather than make personal comments about me, try stating your opinion with facts to effectively express it.
FACT: “fascism – An extreme-right totalitarian political regime ideologically based on centralized government, violently repressing any criticism or opposition of the regime, leader cult and exalting nation-state and/or religion above individual rights. …”
I withdraw my statement about you being confused and replace it with this: You are a complete right wing nutcase.
There you go with the name calling again. Your definition just described the Democratic Party in America…Idealogically based on centralized governemtn- Look at the left in America and you see a consistent push for a larger federal (central) government; violently repressing any criticism or opposition of the …an honest look at Obamamania by the media, and the politics of personal destruction they practice against their enemies will confirm that, exalting a nation state above individual rights- again, clearly a left wing Democratic idealogy.
It wasn’t until Hitler started his military agressions that the left started distancing themselves from him. Since then there has been a move to revise history, but an honest look at the idealogies and the policies especially economic reveal the connection.
Thanks for proving my point.
GBS supported a popular theory known as Eugenics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
Other supporters of the theory include Churchill & Roosevelt. Eugenics was the “global warming theory” of it’s time. It wasn’t supported by just the “left”, but by all sides.
For those with a strong stomach, some of the reporting of the Von Brunn nutter is here:
http://www.anorak.co.uk/media/213104.html
http://www.anorak.co.uk/politicians/213069.html
http://www.anorak.co.uk/media/212989.html
The above stories may contain quotes from external sources which some may find offensive. However, this one should be OK
http://www.anorak.co.uk/celebrities/213120.html
St Michael dear, The quote from the New York Times was a textual reproduction of the President’s full speech, not a reflection of the political stance of NYT!
In the interests of political neutrality – here is a video version from You Tube. You can compare the two to ensure that there are no nasty left wing insertions of non existent text by the NYT.
Whilst I respect your personal religious faith, and that of others, that does not mean that I share their views on moral and social behavioural rules. I belong to no religious institution and believe that one day we will discover “the meaning of life”, but until such time, religious faiths are personal beliefs about the unknown. BUT I am the one who was born a nice Jewish Girl, not St. M, Wizzrd!! LOL
The President’s speech certainly gave support to THAT way of thinking, and it does not mean that one has to support the left or right in order to believe that there is room in the world for all beliefs and that they should not be used as excuses for military or terrorist aggressions.
In addition, as with most institutionalized religions, the Catholic and Fundamentalists Churches, have diverged a long way from the basic Christian teachings that “God is Love” and “love thy Brother”, and just a much as the teachings of the Koran have been twisted by the extremists fundamentalists in Islam.
You do seem to be a little muddled on your analysis of left and right. Hitler was a FASCIST, he was a racist and represented the often seen resurgence of the extreme right that arises during severe economic crises, his following the Depression in Germany where money lost its value to an extreme degree. The presence of the BNP in the UK and the extreme right in Holland in mainstream politics,and the increase in activities of white supremacists in the US are a worrying sign of history repeating itself.
In addition to a confused political analyis, you are more than kind in suggesting the the only influencing factor in Von Brunn’s actions was his mental state. He is and was known previously for his white supremacists views and actions. (Unless you consider all extremists are mentally ill!).
I dont often agree with Festa, but his historical memory of the rise in fascism in Europe is on this occasion somewhat more accurate than yours. Perhaps his age and proximity to Hitler’s Germany may help. To a post war baby in London, his assessment certainly rings truer than yours.
Pistol is, of course, well out of line, as usual, in implying that you were a serial ponzi promoter, and, whilst your mind may be closed on the themes of religion and politics, you have certainly demonstrated a great willingness to learn the truth about the ASD business you were involved with and an ability to accept its realities.
Ooops – sorry!
“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfSR_V5BZ5s”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfSR_V5BZ5s
And sorry again!
It wasn’t until Hitler started his military agressions that the left started distancing themselves from him. Since then there has been a move to revise history, but an honest look at the idealogies and the policies especially economic reveal the connection.
Thanks for proving my point.
Don’t know how I missed this. St. M. that was a very very silly thing to say, and even more so if you want your arguments to be taken seriously. I suggest you take a course in prewar German political history before you post again on the subject. Your comments, apart from being inaccurate, are becoming very offensive to Europeans and especially to those personally affected by World War II and the rise of the Third Reich.
Based on Pistol’s deinition Fascist economic ideas were more in line with the political left in the US than with the right. My mind is no more closed than yours either and to say so is a personal affront not to mention arrogant. (maybe liberals resort to personal insults because they lack the facts to prove their point)
So it is offensive to connect Hitler to left wing extremism but it’s not offensive for you to connect von Brunn to right wing extremism?
Show me how an ever growing centralized government and exhalting the nation state above individual rights is an idealogy of the right. That is the point I made and Pistol confirmed in his definition.
von Brunn certainly carried an idealogy consistent with Hitler, and Hitlers economic ideas were certainly not in favor of free markets and idividual rights which is the halmark of conservative idealogy. His view about the 911 conspiracy theory is also a left wing idea. So in the least Alasycia, you should have said nothing rather than tow the line of the biased media.
Saint Michael said:
“So it is offensive to connect Hitler to left wing extremism but it’s not offensive for you to connect von Brunn to right wing extremism?
Why is it beyond you to grasp the fact that both Hitler and Von Brunn were right wing extremists. NAZIS, the pair of them. If you believe both Hitler and Von Brunn were left wingers, could you be so kind as to give us an example of who you believe to be right wing? Yourself, perhaps?
I know it’s going off topic but: Was Hitler right or left wing?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070430035707AA9kZCA
One comment that seem to apply to Von Brunn & Hitler:
Maybe there is a breakdown in terms here. I think that when Alasycia called von Bunn a right wing extremist she did not mean right wing in the dictionary definition meaning opposing change, or reactionary. She meant a member of the political right in the US. But if you look at the idealogy of the political right in America it is the opposite of Pistol’s definition of fascism. Pistol’s definition of fascism describes the idealogy of the the left in American politics today. Hitler may have been right wing in the German politics of its day, but Alasycia was not calling von Bunn that that was she? She was calling him a right wing extremist in order to connect him with Republican side of the American political spectrum but most of his views are not consistent with that.
If you believe in individual rights, in limited government, in free market economy, in a literal reading of the Consitution, if you believe in those things then you arein the right wing of the political spectum of US politics.
If you believe in the federal government controlling health care, controlling the banking industry, in taking over the auto industry, in controlling education, all these industries, from a central government then your views are more aligned with the left. That is the spectum in American politics today. If you look at Hitlers and von Bunns idealogies they are more left leaning than right, based on the current political spectrum.
In the articles I read on von Bunn, including the Washington Post, they report von Bunn saying the holocaust never happened. Remember who else said that? Achmadenijad, the one Obama thinks should have nuclear weapons even though his whole reason for getting them is to anhiliate Israel. So again, we have a left wing US president supporting the aquisition of nulear weapons by a jew hating Iranian leader who has declared his intent to destroy the Jewish nation.
It is highly likely to be offensive to the families of the many tens of thousands of people from all over Europe who were sent to the concentration camps for their political beliefs to call Hitler anything other than a fascist who spewed hate. I believe Von Brunn adnmired him greatly.
Extremists are not, in my humble opinion, the healthiest of people, whether left or right, as they both invariable forget a small item called civil and religious liberties. It is also a great mistake if anyone has the idea that the governments of the middle east are left wing. The vast majority are quite the reverse.
Saint Michael said:
“Achmadenijad, the one Obama thinks should have nuclear weapons ”
Wherever do you get these fanciful and ludicrous ideas from? Make them up as you go along do you? They are certainly not facts.
BTW what or where is the spectum? I fancy it must be near or closely related to the rectum because that seems to me to be where you get your ideas from.
I think that when Alasycia called von Bunn a right wing extremist she did not mean right wing in the dictionary definition meaning opposing change, or reactionary.
Oh yes I did!
St. M, PLEASE go and READ or WATCH your President’s speech, instead of misquoting it.
Then take note, Alasycia, that when you post on an American website about a murder that happened in America and you call him a right wing extremist, that many Americans are going to hear that as a connection to the right wing of the US current political culture (the American media had every intention of meaning it that way and did NOT mean it the way you say you did). Additionaly, can you acknowledge that based on economic ideas the far right wing as you use the term cannot describe the conservative movement in the US because based on economic ideas fascism, as Pistol defined it, belongs to the left.
So we can agree on this, but maybe you won’t admit it. Hitler was a fascist. Fascism is as Pistol defined it. And Fascism, as Pistol defined it characterizes the American left today. So if you are a far left wing liberal in American idealogy as it exists today, you are a fascist, (the not so far left are Socialists) Whew! I am so glad we cleared that up.
Anyone want to talk about gun control?
Oh yes because we can always take politicians at their word and because Obama said it he must mean it. He never uses political rhetoric to make his speech sound appealing and he never uses his words to create emotional connections while his idealogy and actions contradict what he says. (read what he said about the US auto industry and what he is doing about it for a good example)
Try clearing this up.”Hitler was a fascist. Fascism is as Pistol defined it. And Fascism, as Pistol defined it characterizes the American left today.” According to you President Obama is of the left, to be of the left is to be Fascist,so what does that make the American President? A modern day Hitler?
Mrs, you are so crazy you should be locked up for your own safety. If you had a brain you would be dangerous. You are so outrageously crazy you should be on youtube as a warning to people not to stop taking their medication. Watch that youtube space. UncleFesta by name, UncleFesta by nature. LOL
P.S. You didn’t say where you got this one from:
“Achmadenijad, the one Obama thinks should have nuclear weapons â€
It looks like at some point in the discussion you just get intellectually lazy, and fall back on personal insults.
I know, I know, Obama didn’t SAY Iran should have nuclear weapons, he said they have a right to aquire nuclear energy for peaceful purposes…and no one really believes that is why they are pursuing it…it was just rhetoric.
Well consider this, Hugo Chavez in a speech last week made a joke when he said that he and Castro were going to have to be careful because after Obama’s work over of the US auto makers they (Chavez and Castro) were going to be perceived as to the right of Obama. Now if they are far right wingers then that would not have been a joke. It was a joke because they know they are left wingers and he is moving this country in their direction.
If you look at Obama’s policies and his actions you would have to admit that based on your definition of fascist, Obama leans that way, and is firmly in the socialist camp. He loves state owned industry and he is pushing hard to get as much of it as possible.
Question: When is extreme-right, left?
Answer: When Saint Michael say it is.
“FACT: “fascism – An extreme-right totalitarian political regime ideologically based on centralized government, violently repressing any criticism or opposition of the regime, leader cult and exalting nation-state and/or religion above individual rights. …â€
“If you look at Obama’s policies and his actions you would have to admit that based on your definition of fascist, Obama leans that way, and is firmly in the socialist camp. He loves state owned industry and he is pushing hard to get as much of it as possible.”
I’ll explain it to you…slowly, very slowly. If you look carefully at what you call my definition you will see that it says fascism is an extreme-right totalitarian political regime. Let me explain further. Extreme-right means…well…just that, extreme-right, in simple terms, NOT left.
You maintain that President Obama is left wing politically and I would agree with you on that point. Unfortunately you cannot have it both ways, no matter how much you would like to. i.e. he is either Fascist/extreme-right or Socialist/left wing. One or the other.
Got it now?
Look, would you two get a freaking life and shut up already???? Micheal, if you feed the animals they keep wanting to eat. Let Festa go hungry, stop arguing with him/it.
Wizzy, we all know you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer but do you have to continually keep proving it? You may or may not have been correct about your forum colleagues religion, I don’t know, she hasn’t clarified that, but do her the courtesy of at least trying to spell her name correctly.
Sure Don, sorry you didn’t enjoy it. I was just practicing my debate and writing skills. Not much to work with when all festa does is insult, but it is still good to practice the art. One never knows who else is reading. And I never feel bad about treating Festa with respect in the face of his continuous insults.
Yeh, Pistol, and coming from you that means….well…nothing.
My comments about Fascism being more idealogically on the left comes in part from the book “Liberal Fascism” and analysis by Economist Thomas Sowell http://www.tsowell.com/ as well as from other conservative writers.
St. M., As far as this topic is concerned, it would be more reassuring if we knew that all Americans, whether or not they support one economic policy or other, condemned the conduct of this particular white supremacist and that of others who share his beliefs and intentions on race. The very thought that aggressive acts, including murder, by white supremacists could be condoned in the US, does not shed a particularly pleasant light on what is supposed to be a highly developed western power. Because THAT is what this thread is about, and not the US president’s economic policies.
The whole nuclear debate is a complex one, and one in which the US inevitably has difficulty as the possessor of 104 plus nuclear generating plants and as a country which has used the atom bomb against its enemies in wartime. If action produces reaction, then all nations’ nuclear policies need to be very clear and peaceful..
And Festa, go and wash your mouth out with soap. You are perfectly capable of saying all you have said and of making your point, without resorting to childish insults. Try it.
What insults? I tell it like it is..or..if you prefer, as I see it. You have a problem with that? I would, of course, prefer to say what is on my mind, with pics rather than with words but some folks find the truth,in any form, rather unpalatable, especially when it is about themselves.
Sigh….but I would still like to read St. M’s response to my last post.
Alasycia, I know of no one who condones that act, all of America condemns the actions of von Bunn. Sadly though, the media was less condemning of the murderer in Arkansas because that did not fit their liberal template. (you know, white male racist compared to a black muslim, the American media is not comfortable condemning a black muslim) (BTW, though I have not confirmed it I did read that von Bunn was a registered democrat)
After America used the atom bomb against it’s enemies who attacked us first, we rebuilt that country for them. Has that ever happened in history before? I’m not sure.
America has used it’s power to defend not only our own soil but that of our many allies. Nuclear weapons should be kept out of the hands of rogue nations, for the sake of all humanity. I pray that nuclear weapons stay only in the hands of peacefull nations, because they can be a detterent, but in the hands of a dictator they are a threat to humanity. Too bad we can’t all just live in peace.
Nuclear weapons should be kept out of the hands of rogue nations, for the sake of all humanity. I pray that nuclear weapons stay only in the hands of peaceful nations, because they can be a deterrent, but in the hands of a dictator they are a threat to humanity. Too bad we can’t all just live in peace.
“The United States is the only nation to have ever used nuclear weapons during war, using two atomic bombs on the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. For more information, see Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_warfare
Sounds like a great case for worldwide nuclear disarmament. lol
The problem seems not be the source of the energy, but the responsibility of the people who control it.
And as for Von Brunn being a registered democrat, so was George Wallace. This is not about party labels. It is about racist white supremacists, who are just as disgusting as any arab who also preaches hate of the west.
Von Brunn’s ideological solution was the antithesis of the solutions proposed in your President’s recent speech. I don’t think it is difficult to see which of the two has a more realistic view of how to achieve some kind of world peace.
And if “all of America” condemns Von Brunns actions, then that is indeed a healthy sign.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_warfarelolThe problem seems not be the source of the energy, but the responsibility of the people who control it.
Yes, and although the technology was new the morality was not. More people were killed in Germany, Tokyo and Russia by the usual weapons, than in Hiroshima. Some say it was not necessary to drop the bomb, that Japan was going to lose anyway. But that begs the question at what cost? They were already planning an invasion of Japan for 1946 and the estimates of casualties were enormous, much larger than from the the A bomb. Add in to the mix the kind of fighting the Japanese were willing to engage in, Kamakaze pilots and wounded soldiers waiting for American medics to come to their aid only to pull a grenade and blow both of them up, what was America to do? Japan’s plans for defense against invasion involved mobilizing the civilian population, including women and children, for the same suicidal battle tactics. That invasion could have been the greatest bloodbath in history according to what I have read. Killing of such a nature as nuclear, can bring no joy to a people but what were they to do? Choose an invasion instead? At what cost? At the cost of an even greater amount of American and Japanese casualties?
It was through the unconditional surrender of Japan that Macarthur was then able to bring a militaristic nation to pacifism which I am sure made Japan’s neighbors happy. They had been put through a lot at the hands of Japan.
And when will this world stop fighting? Of course those are almost the same words I say to my 3 young boys almost daily.
I agree the Von Bunn matter should not be about party labels which is why I responded to the far right wing extremist label.
The difficulty for many of us, when discussing wars and bombs with people who live in the US, is that the US has NOT had to suffer a war on its soil in modern times. It has never had enemy bombs falling on its homes and industry. It has never been occupied by foreign powers. It has never been at risk from invasion by neighbouring countries.
For all the rest of us, with the possible exception of Australasia, war means the total disruption of our daily lives and civilian death at the hands of the military. It is not something that happens “over there”, with the only risk to us being the death of our soldiers. It is something that happens in our own back yard. 9/11 stunned the US, but, thereagain, it was the first time in living memory that any americans had been killed in their own country. War to the rest of us has always meant death in our own backyards. You will find that Europeans are far more sensitive to discussions about Hitler than Americans, because most of us have been directly affected by his regime as civilians, especially those families of jews, non-ayrians and socialists and those whose countries were either invaded or whose homes were bombed.
Imperial powers, through history, have often been at the root of instabilities that have lasted centuries. Action provokes reaction and a close look at the original British occupation of parts of the middle east and the consequent rise of the Moslem Brotherhood. together with the abuse of nearly ALL powers of the Palestinian population during the past century will paint a very different story than a simplistic Islam versus Christianity analysis.
I guess war will stop when the people who own the arms decide to leave other countries alone and when the people who rule countries are willing to allow disagreement without repression.
Hey ladies, No! Wizzard not you, even I understand that just because you like prancing round in star-spangled blue outfits that closely resemble ladies frocks it doesn’t necessarily mean you are a lady. No, I meant Saint Michael and Jenny but to be perfectly honest I sometimes wonder about that as well.
Anyway, being as this discussion has been most amicable, good-humoured, honest, truthful and informative, I wonder if either of you would mind answering a few questions from 1)A female left wing European’s perspective and 2)A female right wing American’s perspective?
If you would be so good as to take part in my little survey, I can assure you it will be short and sweet and very much to the point although admittedly drifting away from the Brunn topic.
I thank you in advance for your co-operation
Do you mind, Patrick? It will not take up too much of your time or space.
THat is an interesting perspective. Do you feel the same way about the Canadians and the Mexicans? or is it something unique about Americans?
Even though America, aside from Pearl Harbor and 911, has not seen the effects of modern day war on its own soil, America has been most generous in its contributions to helping countries in need whether militarily or humanitarily, wouldn’t you agree? According to one source I looked at Britain lost 264K soldiers and 60K civilians in WWII. The US lost 292K soldiers. That’s a lot of commitment and loss. I acknowledge that Britain suffered more than the US, especially in its homeland, the US participation was significant and the cost at home was high. My father was in the army in WWII as was my uncle. My brother was wounded in Viet Nam and his life was permanently affected by that experience. My own son comes home from Afghanistan in a couple weeks. My life has been affected by war.
Because of our form of government the US has become a most prosperous country. Our Constitution created the environment for individual prosperity and in that climate human ingenuity soared as did the advances of mankind. I acknowledge there is a dynamic to our empathy that might be missing because of the reasons you mentioned. From what I can tell, America has been there with it’s money and it’s people to help their friends around the world every step of the way.
I’m not sure what you mean. Feeling what way about what?
Pistol sometimes I find you quite funny. Can’t you see Alasycia and I are having a conversation about world history here? I am interested in hearing her perspective. I posted that last item before seeing your post. It was meant for her. Though your welcome to chime in…
Your post and your request are puzzling.
Because of our form of government the US has become a most prosperous country.
And being so sufficiently vast and in possession of its own raw materials and natural resources to be able to survive independently if it had to close its borders, which no other country apart from the old Russia could do. You also have some poverty levels in the US population that are unthinkable in today’s Europe.
We have heard the US generosity argument many times, and that may have been true in the past, but is hardly relevant to GWB’s incursions into Iraq. And, without wishing to be accused of being cynical, much American aid has arrived in the rest of the world with some very large strings attached. It is called Tied Aid. In modern times, the US is not the only government who offers assistance – as has been evidence in the various natural disasters that have taken place in the past decade.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html
As for having members of your family in the military, it must be a constant source of worry for you and my heart goes out to you. War is not glorious, nor even patriotic, unless your own country is under attack and you have to defend it from an invading army. War is no longer fought on battle fields with heraldic trumpets to indicate the start of the battle. War is a terrible tool used by governments to solve problems. People lose there homes, live in daily fear for their lives, and many die in their own soil at the hands of their enemies. All I can say is that I thank the lord that conscription no longer exists in Spain and that neither of my two boys have to go to war in any place in the world if they chose not to.
Equally The Vietnam war and the draft was a terrible era in American history that caused real suffering to the soldiers and the families of those who were obliged by their country to serve there – not to mention to the civilians in Vietnam. There must be many mothers who are giving thanks that they did not bring in the draft for the Iraqi war. It was a black period in American domestic history.
And all of this is totally irrelevant to the fact that a white supremacist shot a guard in the Holocaust museum in Washington. lol
Patrick, can Festa do his questionnaire? I’m game.
Hmm – St. M – I wasnt aware that Mexican or Canadan military was involved in any way in the present scenario in the Middle East. Neither have I heard either of them jumping up and down about how generous they have been to other countries, nor that they have saved the world from itself. Did I miss something?
Though your welcome to chime in…
OK
America has been most generous in its contributions to helping countries in need whether militarily or humanitarily, wouldn’t you agree?
I wouldn’t agree. It is a fallacy. American foreign aid taken as a percentage of GDP is, I think, around 0.1%. This is the lowest of all industrialized nations. Hopefully that % will rise shortly now that President Obama is in the White House.
“Your post and your request are puzzling.”
Really? Jenny seems to have got the idea quite quickly.
I ask you both a few straight and to the point questions and you both, if possible, give me straight and to the point answers. Pretty simple, really.
Alasycia my question about Canadaians and Mexicans was in response to this satement…
“The difficulty for many of us, when discussing wars and bombs with people who live in the US, is that the US has NOT had to suffer a war on its soil in modern times. It has never had enemy bombs falling on its homes and industry. It has never been occupied by foreign powers. It has never been at risk from invasion by neighbouring countries.” THe Mexicans and the Canadians have also not had to suffer those things in modern times. Do you have difficulty discussing wars and bombs with them?
thanks for posting that Alasycia. I gained some new insights from your perspective. I hadn’t thought about global entitlement as a natural progression of the socialist mindset but it makes sense. You think the US is greedy because they are not giving their assets and natural resources to the world for free. The world is entitled to the Unites States great achievements regardless who gave their lives and fortunes and risked all to develop, discover and create those achievements.
In a perfect world it would be great if the world would just share it’s resources freely with each other. It will never happen, of course because there will always be those who want a piece of the pie without doing anything for it. (Pistol, you can interject your usual broken record at this point)
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
May I ask, Saint Michael, have you or do you intend to take the 5th regarding my little survey?
Hi St. M. I dont know where you managed to find any comments about global entitlement out of a remark about the US’s ability to be self sufficient due to their natural resources. I dont see where it said or implied that the rest of the world should be able to share them. You seem to be assuming a lot about the remark.
The comment about US Tied Aid is not an invention. I live in a country that received Marshal Aid – and it did have strings attached, as does much aid given by one country to another. Statistics show, however that the US, followed by Italy are two of the countries who ask for the most in return. And, unfortunately, Festa’s comment about the percentage given is bordering on the correct.
Where I think you misunderstand my post is that I am not suggesting the US should give aid or shouldnt give aid. My comment is simply that one’s gets a little weary of hearing constantly about US generosity Other countries also help, with varying degrees of strings attached.
And Festa, on second thoughts – as any survey of yours will probably involve cartoons, I think I’ll be a coward and pass.
No cartoons. Just a few questions and answers. Of course, silence is always a loud reply. I thought you were made of sterner stuff than that.