AdViewGlobal ‘Surf’ Firm Suspends Member Cash-Outs, Threatens Media With Copyright-Infringement Lawsuits
UPDATED 4:40 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) Before AdViewGlobal (AVG) even shared what it described as a members-only, “Breaking News” announcement that it was suspending cash-outs, the embattled surf firm threatened media outlets with copyright-infringement lawsuits if they published the announcement.
Members almost immediately shared the news outside the confines of the AVG “private association,” despite the firm’s bid to compartmentalize its announcement. Members said they had grown increasingly frustrated by AVG’s ham-handed efforts to operate in an environment of secrecy and the predisposition of some promoters to scold participants for asking questions about the company in public.
AVG informed members that cash-outs would be suspended for at least 30 days. An 80/20 program that further separates members from their money would be made mandatory. At the same time, AVG claimed it had solved payment-processing and banking problems that had dogged it for months.
The firm did not explain how it had solved the problems.
Recently, though, the firm entered into a partnership with a new company based in Canada. Members said AVG now was selling a debit card that could be used for “page impression” purchases through PayPal, whose Acceptable Use Policy expressly forbids the company’s services to be used for pyramid schemes and Ponzi schemes, two things associated with the business model AVG employs.
The debit card is offered through Texas-based Secure Cash Network Inc. (SCN), which says in its Terms of Service that the card cannot be used for the purchase of illegal products and services. Many jurisdictions consider the autosurf business model to be illegal, and the U.S. government has successfully prosecuted a number of surf firms in recent years.
AVG also said it was hiring “new management” within two weeks, but did not say whether it was firing old management — or even identify its current management team. Incongruously, the surf promised to identify its new management team, members of which may be stepping into a hornet’s nest. AVG engages in an industry frequently linked with wire fraud and money-laundering, and is closely associated with a firm under investigation for those crimes.
As is typical of AVG announcements, the company suggested members were responsible for the firm’s problems.
In this post, the PatrickPretty.com Blog listed the Top 5 reasons to avoid AVG, which purports to be a professional “advertising” and communications firm headquartered in Uruguay. There now is a sixth reason: The news AVG hoped to compartmentalize within its organizational walls — news that now is being talked about openly in forums — may be evidence of a crime in progress.
Could the AVG announcement become an important piece of evidence in an ongoing wire-fraud, money-laundering and Ponzi scheme investigation involving Florida-based AdSurfDaily Inc. (ASD) and unnamed others?
There is good reason to believe AVG is part of the ASD probe.
Two of AVG’s trustees — George Harris III and his wife, Judy Harris — are named in a federal forfeiture complaint as beneficiaries of illegal conduct by ASD. George Harris is the stepson of ASD President Andy Bowdoin. The Tallahassee home Harris shared with his wife — and an automobile registered to the couple — were named in the forfeiture complaint as the proceeds of a crime.
AVG trustees George Harris and Judy Harris are named in a federal forfeiture complaint as beneficiaries of illegal conduct by AdSurfDaily Inc., a surf firm with close ties to AVG.
Bowdoin is described in court filings as a target of a federal criminal investigation. AVG graphics once appeared on a website controlled by ASD, and AVG listed its street address as 13 S. Calhoun Street, Quincy, Fla., in the graphics. That is the same mailing address ASD listed, and federal prosecutors said it is bogus, which may signal ASD also is part of a mail-fraud investigation.
AdViewGlobal says Quincy is its home, but also says Uruguay is its home.
Moreover, prosecutors said in court filings that Bowdoin signed a proffer letter in the ASD case before firing his paid attorneys and proceeding as a pro se litigant. Bowdoin told ASD members that he decided to represent himself in court after consulting with a “group.”
His first pro se pleading was dated Feb. 25. The following day, AVG introduced members to Pro Advocate Group, which says it helps businesses form “private associations” and individuals practice specialties such as law and medicine without a license.
Karl Dahlstrom was accused of using investors' funds to purchase new vehicles and pitching the opportunity to church groups.
Pro Advocate Group is associated with Karl Dahlstrom, who was convicted in the 1990s of securities fraud and sentenced to 78 months in federal prison. Prosecutors said Dahlstrom bought automobiles with investors’ money, an assertion also made against Bowdoin and George and Judy Harris, the AVG trustees.
Dahlstrom also pitched his program to church members — yet another assertion made against Bowdoin.
Meanwhile, an AVG forum operated by some of the Mods and members of the Pro-AdSurfDaily Surf’s Up forum appears to have gone dark. It is unclear if content from the forum has been deleted.
** UPDATE 4:40 P.M., June 25: The website of a firm closely associated with AVG — eWalletPlus — also has gone dark. The site has been throwing a server error for at least 24 hours. eWalletPlus provided certain money services for AVG and once operated from the Phoenix area. As is the case with AVG’s servers, the servers for eWalletPlus now resolve to Panama.
EWalletPlus stopped accepting registrations from new members during the same spring time frame in which AVG announced its bank account had been suspended. ** END 4:40 P.M.UPDATE **
AVG launched after federal prosecutors seized tens of millions of dollars from Bowdoin, whom prosecutors said had a history of taking money from customers and moving it from one company to another when his enterprises encountered difficulties and could not pay members.
Like AVG, Bowdoin suspended member cash-outs and announced retrenchment plans, which fundamentally shifted the burden of paying participants from one group to another within the organization.
AVG appears to be doing the same thing, but appears also to still be collecting money from prospects who visit the firm’s main website. AVG’s retrenchment plan is not mentioned on its sales site, even though the site has a “Breaking News” banner. AVGÂ also does not inform prospects about the ties to ASD on its sales site.
New members may not learn about the retrenchment plan until after they join the organization.
Lack of disclosure is one of the allegations against ASD, which prosecutors said also engaged in the sale of unregistered securities.
AVG’s announcement of the retrenchment program raises new questions about whether the company is engaging in the sale of unregistered securities while operating an unregistered money-services business.
Was not surprised to see that Miss Erma Seabaugh posted on the new site today. Did she really think that it was going to stay private? Plus, she has already had a clawback taken at least once from the ASD scam.
Open note and offer to CORRECTION! and David,
I’ll give you 5:1 odds that AVG will never successfully prosecute a copyright infringement suit against anyone. Up for it? Would 10:1 entice you? Free Ad Packs? Before you see another “money for nothing” opportunity at Entertained’s expense, please remember that Entertained has passed the bar exam administered by the US Patent & Trademark Office…. Clearly the AVG folks do not understand copyright law and copyright infringement damage litigation, and certainly not AVG marketing “guru” Donna.
Just food for thought. Just because AVGA has announced all this information does not mean that it is all true. There is a possibility this is nothing more than a PR ploy to keep the members in line, and reduce the dissension within the ranks. Since everything has been secret, you only have “their word” on all of this. Remember all the “promises” that ASD was making about outside sources of revenue, major corporations jumping on board, new servers, etc, etc..? What’s to say it’s not the same here? After all, many of the former ASD people are running this.
Where’s David and CORRECTION when you need them?
Entertained:
RETRACT!!! you said ad packs! This infant company uses “page impressions!”
Copyright infringement? Lawsuits? Any bells ringing? Like when Andy was going to sue a bunch of people for exposing his scam….
AVG is a SCAM. There, now they can sue me :)
Hi Lynn,
I’m not sure how well they are reducing dissension within the ranks, but I do know that some of the troops are spinning the announcement as good news.
We’ve also received some reports about cheerleaders scolding the rank-and-file today. A couple of days ago one prominent cheerleader recommended that current AVG members pay the way for 10 new members to join the company as a demonstration of loyalty.
This came on the heels of the JFK question — you know, what would John F. Kennedy do?
President Kennedy naturally would have done whatever it took to champion the AVG cause, according to one cheerleader. It later was suggested that the president was assassinated because he understood the overall money conspiracy, and so was silenced before he could reveal it.
And the good folks must never discount the impending visit by a race of reptilian aliens, of course. The time to get ready for it is now. Apparently President Clinton and the Congress set the stage for the visit back in the 1990s, during a secret meeting.
This was before President George W. Bush planned the 9/11 attacks.
And, in case you didn’t know, it’s possible to make a mortgage foreclosure go away by filing a bond consisting of “twenty-one dollars in silver coinage†at the courthouse.
Patrick
If Andy’s head were severed from his body, there would be some in the ASD universe who would spin this as good news as only his mind was needed to create ASD and the rest of the body was just using up more food than necessary. The faithful would overlook the obvious implications of having your head severed…
Patrick:
Now you have done it. Donna is out to get you, and she said, and I quote: “Patrick will need to account for allowing copyrighted material on his blog.” Bad Boy, Bad Boy! LOL!
Wanna bet you never get served?
Hold on a minute – I thought that Donna was the Valkyrie that was doing to save AGVA
Hi Lynn,
The troops inform us that we’re a “Notorius scumbag” and that AVG members who communicate with this Blog are “lowlife scumbag[s].”
Honestly, though, copyright is a serious thing. But if I were an AVG member, I’d be wondering whether I had a duty to report to the U.S. Secret Service or the FBI the announcement AVG made about the retrenchment program, which was coupled with the copyright-infringement lawsuit threat.
I’d also wonder if the AVG email to members earlier this month that pulled the Forbes’ logo right off the Forbes’ server also might raise an infringement issue — I mean, more of one than, say, a few lines AVG members copied from the AVG forum and pasted elsewhere.
Members could have been led to believe that Forbes — and the Washington Business Journal and The Business Review, whose logos also were pulled — was endorsing AVG. Perhaps AVG will say that hotlinking to publishing companies’ servers and pulling graphics of logos and emailing them to members is “Fair Use.”
Perhaps AVG members who come here and post snippets of AVG’s forum content will argue “Fair Use.” It’s a pretty big story, considering the ASD investigation and ASD’s ties to AVG. The public has a significant interest, considering taxpayers’ money is being used to investigate ASD and at least three federal agencies are involved in the probe.
The ASD case is a real, live, active prosecution, not a figment of the imagination, and ASD’s fingerprints are all over AVG: in management, in membership, in common promoters.
It strikes me odd that Donna is advancing this copyright notion, which was just another thing that resulted in AVG keeping itself in the news.
Of course, the ASD faithful kept Andy Bowdoin in the news with Kool-Aid campaigns to Bill O’Reilly; the million-member (unrealized) ASD March on Washington (when Congress was in recess and no permits had been contemplated or obtained); the plan to get AARP (senior citizens’ lobby) to lobby on behalf of a Ponzi scheme that fleeced senior citizens; the various letter-writing campaigns; the lie that Ponzi allegations had been dropped against ASD in Florida; the purported $200 million deal with Praebius; the “Arby’s Indians” saga; etc.
Patrick
Now THAT’S funny! I’ve looked up Donna’s past track record. None too impressive, in spite of what our easily impressed friends David and CORRECTION! might think…… No way she knows squat about copyright law, and no Patrick, you will not get served……at least with a serious service. The AVG Ponzi promoting lawyers could file a frivolous case, but it would get booted out pretty quickly.
Cathy,
It is interesting to look Erma up on Google. She’s been in a few of these Ponzi schemes….hiding, apparently accprding to the Surf’s Up mods, as a kindly old lady. She’s only 62, not old at all. She has 12 more years of scamming before she can match Bowdoin.
Entertained:
It is one of the reasons why the AVGA Management Team did not want their names known, because they knew they would be exposed from their past dealings. They knew they could not stand up to the scrutiny as it would hurt recruiting.
But another angle that has been especially of interest to me regarding AVGA is how they claim in their TOS they are protected by the U.S. Constitution, but registered offshore to prevent being subject to U.S. regulatory agencies. On the one hand they are ‘protected by’ the “evil” government, and on the other hand they claim they are ‘protected from’ the “evil” government. Talk about convoluted logic, but convoluted AVGA has always been.
“We believe it is our responsibility as consumers to look after our planet. That’s why AV Global donates a percentage of our profits to organizations that are doing good in the world.”
Taken from the AVGA home page~
Wondering how much has been donated so far? And what is their expectation of “doing good” stand for?
Wouldn’t it be interesting to know? When we really know if they gave anything at all, it would be page impressions that are pretty useless about now.
For Those Who May Have Updated Their Mailing Address:
Posted 6 Hours Ago By Lloyd Merrifield
Anyone that does not live in the USA must use this address as their billing address.
Address: 102 College Station Dr
City: Brevard
State: NC
ZIP: 2871200000
Mail address 1: 102 College Station Dr
Mail address 2: 3-117
This was also taken from the “new” forum. How can anyone living outside of the US use this address when they do not physically live there? And why would anyone want to use an address that they have no idea where this is located? And are they not located in Uruaguay?
Questions, questions, questions…
Now that’s an interesting concept. In order to attempt to enforce their supposed copyright, they’d need to file in Federal Court, which would make them without any logical explanation within US jurisdiction. No ponzi scheme is ever going to sue anyone for anything, they tend to want to avoid courtrooms, lawyers, discovery etc… I beg them to sue me, discovery can be a lot of fun.
That many huh? I thought it would have been a lot lower. By the way, you forgot GOOSE EGG.
I remember last year when the “members” were so excited about how that Don Peterson guy got “tough” with the audience about how some sites were claiming Andy Bowdoin was a bad person, after only having received one speeding ticket his whole life……they promised legal action then.
Is Irma the same one who did the conference calls? What about that Alan guy? Remember…..”Thanks Alan, Hi Folks…..good to …..”
Sicilian, I still cringe when I hear Don Peterson’s name. I was one that bit into his story and believed him! Twice I heard him in Mpls. and thought “boy this must be real, I can’t pass on this opportunity.” Lesson learned the really hard way.
And yes, Erma is the same little old lady from the calls and also one the Don praised over and over again.
So to all that still believe in AVGA, it doesn’t matter what story they tell you, it is a lie.
AFter 30 days, do you really believe that you will be able to get money out? Highly doubt it. Just like last July when ASD’s servers went down for darn near the whole month. Another bogus lie.
By July of last year ASD had so much money lying around they did not know what to do with it….they couldn’t launder it fast enough. And who will ever forget Erma’s WICKED LAUGHTER when Andy announced the contest to improve ASD….or her crocodile tears at what a good man he was? The law will never put these people in jail fast enough. Maddoff is in jail, Petters is in jail (some in MN are saying the fall of Denny Hecker has ties to Petters), Stanford is in jail….(unless he gets bond) why isn’t Andy?
Hi Saint Michael,
ASD gave $177,900.12 to Andy’s wife and her son, prosecutors said. Andy took an additional $48,244.03 for himself and plunked it down on a new Lincoln. The Bowdoin/Harris family took an additional $43,951.98 and plunked it down on boats and such.
Andy took $800,000 cash and bought a building in Quincy, and got a round of applause from the local Chamber for creating/keeping jobs in the town.
In August, Andy sent a check for $100 to the victims of his Alabama securities scheme from the 1990s.
Andy and his 1990s cronies leased lavish offices in Atlanta and tooled around in expensive cars — all on investors’ money.
He didn’t bother to tell the ASD folks a decade later.
All the AVG employees — some of whom were being paid in ad-packs, with the burden of the ad-pack rebates passed onto rank-and-file members — lost their jobs.
Andy blamed it on the evil government.
Patrick
Yes Patrick, but you forget the the water toys that Andy bought for the members “pleasure and benefit.” That has to count for something!
Hi Sicilian,
The $1 million in Antigua was for their benefit, too.
Patrick
clearly they wasted no time trying to spend it and let’s not forget boxes of money orders and checks just lying around the office. And that’s the money we know about. boy running that scam must have been like a full time job for them.
Actually I was hoping David would have responded to Entertained’s challenge because I was wanting to see “alien math” up close and personal I just checked all the major universities and I did not see a course in “alien math” so therefore it had to come from real “alien’s.” I just want to know how you were able to have the alien’s teach you their math Entertained? Wait, it is not one of those things if you tell us how you have to kill us is it? FYI: Sent you a missive.
Patrick,
Your response to Saint Michael’s comment isn’t reportage, it’s literature. Brilliant.
Patrick,
admin: Andy and his 1990s cronies leased lavish offices in Atlanta and tooled around in expensive cars — all on investors’ money.
He didn’t bother to tell the ASD folks a decade later.
All the AVG employees — some of whom were being paid in ad-packs, with the burden of the ad-pack rebates passed onto rank-and-file members — lost their jobs.
Andy blamed it on the evil government.
As often happens, you seem so excited about bashing Andy and ASD that you failed to be accurate. Did you mean ASD or, as you stated AVG? They are not the same entity. Fair and accurate is really not too much to expect from an authority such as yourself.
I’m not going to comment further on AVGA on this forum, so don’t ask. Thanks!
You’re right. When are you going to provide the proof asked of you since you seem to be a self proclaimed authority on AVG?
To Correction and Whip: There’s an expression for your kind of nitpicking. It’s called “gag on a gnat but swallow a camel.” You can’t tolerate a typographical error on Patrick’s part, but have swallowed the entire I Love Andy cause, hook, line, and sinker. Andy’s never had more than a speeding ticket, has he? He’s proven himself to be an honorable, Christian man who was victimized by the Federal government. ASD would be an honorable and viable business still operating strong, without cash flow problems, just like AVG is now, Or is AVG operating strong, without cash flow problems? If so, I wonder why they had to cancel cash-outs — not just rebates, which were “never guaranteed” we know– but AVG took in money from investors under the pretext that they could get it back out under one set of rules, then changed the rules to help themselves, knowing it would hurt many of their investors. Even AVG’s 20/80 “recommendation” is now policy, contrary to investors understanding when they invested their funds.
Tell me this, Correction and Whip: Say you put $250,000 in a bank’s Certificate of Deposit, with the understanding that it matured and you could cash the full amount in l20 days, Then, after you bought the CD, the bank told you that it would be l80 days before you could touch your funds and even then you could only have 20% ($50,000) of YOUR OWN CASH, because if the bank honored its original terms and conditions for all CD owners, the bank wouldn’t have enough money to cover it. Would you be suspicious that the bank was in big financial trouble? Or maybe I better ask if would you understand that many people unfamiliar with the honor among autosurf operators, might rightly be suspicious? The question has only two possible answers: (A) No, I don’t understand why the owner of the CD might be worried about his decision to buy the CD, or (B) Yes, I understand why the owner of the CD might be worried about his decision to buy the CD, Go on from there if you like, but answer the simple question first, if you will.
I think you misread Marci. Correction was playing the game of trying to one up Patrick since Correction has no fact to post.
I was just calling correction out like we have already before for his lack of proving outside income for AVG.
Since he comes here as a self proclaimed expert on AVG, he should easily be able to do this.
I have nothing to do with any of these scams but enjoy reading about them.
Do you think Forbes is still backing AVG? Or should we demand a “retraction” on their web site.
And from the tone of Corrections! posts it seems that it is a she, not a he. Probably Barb McIntyre, maybe Laura Pont, Irma, or another of those.
Correction,
I regret I did not catch my typo.
The passage should read, “All the ASD employees — some of whom were being paid in ad-packs, with the burden of the ad-pack rebates passed onto rank-and-file members — lost their jobs. Andy blamed it on the evil government.”
Patrick
Ask them and see
Well I will tell you one thing, you do go after the easy pickins from the forum. Yes there are some real moronic things said by some members, believe me everyone I know thought the Kennedy thing was completely stupid and the only person who responded to it,probably because he felt sorry for him, was another cheerleader. It’s rather unfair to pretend that these guys represent AVGA. I even want to tell them to shut up and I have.
Hi Marci,
Appreciate your thoughts, and the compliment about my writing.
Thank you.
Patrick
Whip,
Your readership is much appreciated. I’m thankful for the note you left for Marci.
Thanks, Whip.
Patrick
Joe,
It would seem that they are all easy pickings. If one assumes that AVG is an illegal Ponzi scheme (and to be fair, you have to admit that all of the evidence thus far supports that position), then all of the posts and supporters are easy pickings, like David and CORRECTION! If you disagree with my premise (ie that AVG is an illegal Ponzi), you can blow it out of the water by providing the validated data requested wrt outside income streams and NOT paying early members with new member money. Otherwise, the preponderance of all currently available data points to an illegal Ponzi, and hence easy pickings. Here’s your chance to weigh in AGAINST AVG being an illegal Ponzi, but bring data (as requested for the nth time…..). Thanks.
PS: Telling me to F*** O** does not constitute “bringing data” in the real workd…..
Joe,
The approach you’ve used on this Blog to articulate your point of view on AVG is no more effective in building support/goodwill for the firm than the approach used by the conspiracy theorists.
Patrick
Hi Marci,
Thanks for sharing these thoughts. They are points some AVG members may find worth pondering.
Patrick
I don’t recall ever telling you to F*** off although it’s not a bad idea. As far as providing records I don’t work there and I’m not privy to that kind of info. It’s pretty convenient asking for something not available to me and then when I’m unable to show you in black and white, using that as evidence for your case. You do as much speculating as anybody Ive seen. Current available data? more like available speculation.
Joe:
The real problem with AVGA is that “EVERYTHING” is speculation. They don’t reveal anything to anyone.
After all the lies they have told, you would think it would make people pause and ask a lot of detailed questions. But neither you nor the majority of the members seem to want to ask the questions, hear the answers, or seem to care. Only a handful are asking, and they are being beaten to a pulp for daring to ask or question what is happening. All we hear is “Patience.” When you hear the word “Patience” being tossed around, 99.9% of the time it is a scam. So far AVGA has followed the script to a “T.”
Joe,
You’re right — you told David to tell me to F*** O**, quite a bit different. I am glad to see that you are admitting that you have no data, no evidence, no proof for legality and sustainability of AVG. As to my speculation, well, some of that is true, but I have also posted a lot of factual information, something you’ve not done at all. The speculation piece is more like “well, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck,” etc.
It is not speculation to point out the strinking similarities between the business models & mechanisms of the ASD/CEP/12DP Ponzi schemes and AVG, not to mention a large smattering of the same convicted felons and Ponzi players shared between ASD and AVG at the leadership level and at the promoter level. Those are facts. Those facts could logically lead one to the conclusion that AVG is an illegal Ponzi just like the others. Of course, this conclusion could be blown out of the water with the right data. You admit you don’t have such information, fair enough. However, none of the leadership nor any of the promoters has posted a shred of data either. Hence I stand by my assertion that the preponderance of available data points to AVG being an illegal Ponzi scheme until such time as any data is provided by you or others to the contrary……
Lynndel Edgington,
You are so uninfornmed it is laughable. AVGA is doing conference calls and webinars with open mics and no holds bared questioning of Donna Rougeau almost daily. The AVGA private forum is bursting with questions and answers from members. Your hyperbole might impress a few here, but AVGA is totally open to questions from members. Can you try to be fair and accurate please?
CORRECTION: so everything is open huh? OK, name all the outside revenue sources and how much money it is bringing into AVGA. Name all the owner’s of AVGA, and while you are at it, all the members of the management team. If everything is so rosy, why stop the rebates? The real answer not the pitch answer AVGA provided. The same for the 80/20 rule being mandatory.
Why does AVGA keep using the disclaimer that AVGA has no connection with ASD, Andy Bowdoin, ElDinero, Golden Panda, and Clarence Busby, when probably 1/2 the management team and ownership were ASD owner’s and part of the management team?
By the way, I hope you do not call the responses to all the questions being asked as being “Open” and “Truthful.” They are nothing more than bobbing and weaving.
How about you being fair and balanced for a change? By the way, I still want to see the “Alien Math” you claim that Enteretained used. Why is it everyone else gets visited by “Aliens” and I don’t? Starting to take this personally.
The fact of the matter is one or more of you have been on these calls,obviously I don’t know who but it I know some one here is a member, probably good ol patrick himself so here is what I’m thinking, why don’t you do us a favor and come on the call and ask these questions to Donna? You can ask anything you want she has said that and means it. You wouldn’t be worried about pissing her or anyone else off so why not? You would be proving your point to us proponents. I guarantee you are there listening and so are we. I’ll take it a step further, show me, if you are there and ask these questions and she can’t answer satisfactorly then maybe I’ll start to believe you. go ahead, make my day! If you really aren’t a member I’ll talk to Donna and ask if I can invite you although I don’t think i need to. Maybe you would be doing all of us a favor to prove it. “Are you gonna whip them pistols out or just stand there whistlin Dixie? Yeah I like Clint, so what.
Read what you wrote…it is pure hyperbole. You used the words “EVERYTHING is speculation”, not me. The fact is you have to speculate since apparently you cannot mind your own business.
Where did anyone say everything is rosey? This is June 2009 and not much about our lives today is “rosey”. Everyone and every business has challenges as does, in my opinion, AVGA.
And for the record, I never said the words “alien math”. Slow down and read what others say. I agree with joe and his comment to Entertained
Is Entertained the authority to which AVGA must open it’s business records for approval? Like joe, I cannot give him or you names and numbers that I cannot get and quite frankly I’m gonna be happy to leave it at that. If that makes his case in his opinion, he can have fun with my answer. I don’t know Entertained and I care less and less what he thinks with each passing day.
The official AVGA spokespeople are speaking for the company to the members in the members back office. If you are a member, I believe your questions will be answered HONESTLY inside the association by company officials. If you are not a member…try to speculate to a minimum and wait and see where it all goes. No retractions will be necessary if you can do that.
Why don’t one of you come on the phone and ask all of these questions I know you can get on there. Donna welcomes it, bring it on. You can prove your point to all of us proponents right there live on the air. If you really can’t get on which I seriously doubt then I’ll get permission from Donna to bring you in myself. Here’s your chance put up or shut up.
You clowns all want to come on here and throw the word ‘speculate’ around yet, can not provide one shred of proof that it is speculation other then you say so.
Where is the hard proof everyone wants?
How can you prove it is speculation and not fact?
You are the one that is uniformed and it hurts you that you can’t prove anyone else wrong.
You people are also proven liars as both of you said you were leaving and not coming back.
CORRECTION:
You are right, it was David you claimed Entertained was using “Alien Math.” I stand corrected.
Here’s the rub, and this is not speculation but FACT. The day AVG opened its doors, and before making AVG an association, it was ILLEGAL! Changing it from AVG to AVGA did not make it legal. Even if they do get outside revenue at some point in time, they were still ILLEGAL the day they opened their doors. It was no different than ASD except for where it is registered.
Trying to claim that AVGA is legal because they are working on providing outside sources of revenue is like saying a drug dealer is legal because he stopped selling drugs and opened a pharmacy.
I just love this demanding a retraction, but when asked to provide information contrary to what was said, you feign ingorance and being out of the loop. Other than the fact you “believe” what they tell you, you have absolutely no proof that anything they have told you is the truth. I would have thought you would have learned your lesson from ASD, but obviously you have not.Ignorance of the law is no defense. Just remember, when you stick your head in the sand, you leave a much larger target still exposed.
My mistake, Whip. I am blushing….trust me. Thanks for pointing our the error of my ways…….
Yeah whip, us changing our mind and coming back really proves we’re liars. What an idiot, Im sure even your fellow bashers were cringing when they read that stupidity.
I doubt anyone cringed.
Why would they?
You have proven time and time again to have no credibility while claiming others don’t just because they see what you don’t want to admit to.
Claiming you are leaving because this place allegedly isn’t worth your time and then not doing so just helps confirm that.
You address one sentence while ignoring the other 4 that ask for fact.
So stop your feeble attempt at deflecting and please provide the proof you have been asked to provide.
No problem. I reread it and can see where you would have made the judgment that you did.
I notice no one is taking me up on going to the call and asking Donna herself for all of the things you’re asking for. Do it live on the air and prove your point to all of us. bring it on
when is the next call Joe?
Joe:
Before I would even consider going on a live call with “Donna,” I would have to know just who Donna is. Is she one of the owner’s of AVGA, or is she one of the officer’s of AVGA, or is she one of the managemnt team of AVGA, or is she someone else? Then I would need to know if Donna is authorized to speak for AVGA, and in what capacity. If she is not an owner or part of the management team, then why in the world would I want to ask her any questions?
But since you claim that Donna is so willing to answer any and all questions, then just have Donna come on here and answer all the questions that have been asked so far that you or CORRECTION will not answer. This way everyone gets to see the answers, and not have to take anyone’s word for it. Of course only if Donna really is part of the management team or ownership. Otherwise she is no different than you or CORRECTION in providing answers to our questions, she can’t because she is not in the “loop.”
It is not a question of being chicken, it is a question of Donna being qualified to even answer the questions. So please tell her to come and post. We welcome it. I promise she won’t get “dirty” from coming here and doing so.
You’ve been offered to provide proof that AVG has outside income and is not illegal and Entertained would join your downline.
You have been called out way before you can call anyone else out.
Bring it on indeed.
Provide proof please.
Seriously, your constant deflection speaks volumes for the scam that is AVG.
I’m not deflecting any thing I’m offering you a chance to Speak to the person who heads the AVGA corporate official call. She runs or owns Syndicate digital which is in partnership with AVGA which I assume you knew. Actually this is for Entertained, whip you don’t seem bright enough to get it anyway. She is definitely the voice for AVGA right now. Boy, I thought you knew all of this, it sounds like you don’t know too much that’s going on if you don’t know who she is. I’ve seen her name on here and now you’re saying you don’t know who she is? Ok, well now you know. As for her coming here? she won’t waste her time because she really could care less about your approval however she will answer the questions you so badly want answered if you ask her. Are you gonna whip them pistols out or are you gonna stand there whistlin Dixie? Yeah I like Clint so what.
she is definitely the spokesperson right now for AVGA I’m surprised you don’t know that you being so much the expert on whats going on there.As far as coming here why should she, she doesn’t give a damn what you think but she will answer your questions on the official corporate call that she runs.She isn’t hiding from any question. We had a 2 and a half hour call the other night and it was that long because as the questions came she answered and was willing to keep going until all questions had been asked. You or someone else, probably patrick himself are members just so you can monitor whats going but if you really aren’t then I will get you on the call. You can be our special guest straight from the Patrick Pretty freakshow. She won’t come here to validate you believe me and as far as I’m concerned you are the ones badmouthing and accusing so you owe it to her to go there. anytime someone is charged with a crime the DA goes to the charged. when conquerors wanted to destroy a country they had to get off there butts and go there. Hey you could get all your questions answered and you would be showing us at the same time. Think about it.
Hi CORRECTION!,
Welcome back….
I suppose you know I don’t care whether you care about my “opinion” or not. Fact of matter is, I have posted rigorous mathematical analyses of multiple scams, including AVG and ASD (and BAS and PBX, if you must know), and while you may not be swayed by mathematical proof (likely for nefarious reasons, ie doing so would expose you to yourself as a believer in a criminal enterprise, or worse), many other potential victims will be. Neither you nor David nor Joe has posted ANY data to refute the math, nor have the gurus back at AVG headquarters. If I am correct, then you and David and Joe are plainly marked as criminals. If I am correct, AVG is an illegal Ponzi, and you three are criminal promoters of this enterprise. I would think that you three would be a bit kmore interested in having the facts from AVG, since again I reiterate that all of the publicly available data points to AVG being an illegal Ponzi, and therefore you and Joe and David being criminals. I am 100% ready to recant, and it does not even need to be you (or Joe or David) bringing the data. It can be Donna or any other AVG insider, but of course so far they cannot, or at the very least, will not, provide evidence of legality. I am very surprised, given your own potential liability, that you would not ask the same from AVG. Why not?
PS: CORRECTION!, Joe, and David,
Please note that I am not calling you criminals. However, there are some serious concerns regarding the legality of AVG, and the questions that I and others have posed should be of GREAT interest to you. If in fact the questions posed (do they have outside income great enough to pay rebates, and have they ever, or are they now, paying off earlier members with later member money) have an unfavorable answer, then you all will have changed status from promoter and participant in perhaps a revolutionary business to criminals who are promoting an illegal Ponzi scheme. You have all admitted that you have no answers, and no data. Why is it you are not concerned that your AVG leaders might be leading you alll into an unwelcome criminal liability? Why are you three not asking the same questions I have been asking? You can’t answer my questions, and it would seem that it would be in your very best interests to have the AVG leadership answer them for you, not for me. They have not done so……if it were me, and I believed in doing due diligence and in living an honest life, I’d sure want those answers. HAve you ever wondered why the have never answered them???? At the very least, I’d want those answers for anyone I might have recruited (because if the answers are unfavorable, in addition to the criminal liability, your downline has every right to sue you for civil damages — in the US David, maybe different in Oz.)
Lynndel Edgington and Entertained,
For the record, I would never, ever, want either you or Entertained in my group of friends and business associates in any business. Even if you gave it your stamp of approval after viewing the internals, I’d pass on any association with either of you. God bless America for the freedom to choose your friends.
Here are some numbers I can give you. While I cannot share exact copywrited content from AVGA’s back office, I believe I can say that no Page Impression (PI) that has ever been issued/sold by AVGA has been paid back 50% of it’s purchase value/cost in VIP (Viewer Incentive Payments back to customers). That is short of 50% and well below 100% of the advertising’s original cost.
All of the income generated by members referal bonuses (5-10%) comes from the company’s 50% side of the purchased dollar equation (50% to VIP + 50% to company)and does not affect the VIP. If outside income has been necessary to this point, I don’t have access to that information. Do private companies need to reveal those numbers to the public anyway?
Those are all the numbers I have to share. I’ve posted them as a courtesy to you and your reference to the numbers and the “space math” comment. I said “space math”, not alien math, because you make this seem like rocket science. It’s a simple business model, not a trip to the moon and back. The company shares revenue on a daily basis with customers who perform a valuable testing services for the company. That’s all I’ve got to say for now.
Correction,
Please explain the “valuable testing services” that customers perform for the company. Is it not just surfing?
CG,
Wow!! That was fast Cathy G. You know I can’t share that here. I know it sounds coy, but it’s for members only at this time.
CG..are you still a member?
Patrick, there are a lot more readers on here than people expect. You and the commentators here are so fair,educated and balanced. I have the utmost respect for the truth detectors on here. You are all so intelligent. I am so glad you did your research on these ponzi schemes. I only wish i would have found this site, before i joined asd . These AVGA people will all demise soon, including my former asd sponsors, whom are in complete distress over legalities from asd. They are losing monies feverishly from there second attempt in AVGA, they couldn’t get people such as myself to fall for it again. Now, they are so desperate they are offering to fund me, at a small interest rate. This is sick, they and AVGA have stooped to new lows.
Thanks CORRECTION!,
I appreciate the data. If in fact the business model of AVG is to pay back no more than on the order of 50% of the initial investment/ad purchase, then AVG can be indefinitely sustainable mathematically. Not sure how to deal with the allusions to 125% payout, or the 200% matching bonuses, etc. Are you saying that no one has ever pulled more out of AVG that they put in?
The second piece is whether or not early members got paid disproportionately to new members. That’s not considered legal.
You might not be surprised to find out that if you and your associates invited me, I probably wouldn’t join you in a business enterprise. #1, I am out of your league (heaven forbid you’d want someone with financial and legal acumen in your midst), and #2, I wouldn’t enter into a business with people who are so easily fooled by Ponzi schemes (because, CORRECTION!, weren’t you a big ASD proponent? Bowdoin himself twice has stated ASD was illegal).
And yet, still no outside sources of revenue. It is a ponzi as you describe and try to tip-toe around not calling it one.
Correction, yes but have not sent money since there are so many unanswered questions.
anonymous,
Sorry to hear about your ASD experience — you are not alone, and you do have options.
Continue to resist AVG. I might be wrong regarding its legality and sustainability (but no one has shown data to the contrary, although CORRECTION!’s last note is pretty good — of course, he/she is pointing out you will lose 50% immediately of your investment, at a minimum.) However, odds are VERY high that I am not (and I am not alone in that assessment). If AVG is legit, it really won’t matter when you join, now or in five years. This is one argument you can use when your “friends” ask you to join AVG. Also note below the possible impact on your ASD restitution…..this alone provides fodder for telling your AVG recruiters that you don’t want to join.
You may want to inform your ASD sponsors that joining AVG may well have endangered any chance they have of participating in the ASD victims’ restitution fund. There is a strong rumor that people will get one chance — if they were an ASD victim they will share in the restitution. If after having discovered that ASD was an illegal Ponzi they choose to join another illegal endeavor of a similar nature (lots out there, inc. Biz Ad Splash, AVG, Noobing, Push Button Extreme, etc.) that they will be barred fromthe ASD restitution. This is actually good for the real victims of ASD, but bad for the serial scammers who will claim an ASD “loss” even though by their subsequent actions they have demonstrated that they are Ponzi Players.
Entertained,
I’m not a big AVGA proponent here trying to get people excited and joining the company. I just came here asking Patrick to be fair and accurate with the misinformation he apparently pulled from the the shutdown AVGA ning forum conversations. I don’t care what anyone does or thinks about AVGA as long as they are fair and accurate. I’m not calling anyone names or accusing them of anything. It’s their business what they do and not mine!
Ah…it’s a rumor? Here we go again.
Lynn,
My unsolicited questions if you want for the phone call. Sorry for the run-on questions…..
1) “Donna, one of the defining characteristics of a Ponzi scheme is that later entrants into a program provide funds that are subsequently distributed to people who joined earlier, and that is not legal, so can you provide a statement from a valid Big 4 auditor suce as PricewaterhouseCoopers that demonstrates that no new member money was used to preferentially pay old members and thereby avoid Ponzi problem?”
2) “Donna, it has been posted online by Entertained a rigorous mathematical analysis of AVG (and ASD) that shows that the business model is not fundamentally sustainable in the absence of external income that is at least the equivalent of the dollars flowing in from new member page impression purchases, so can you provide an audited statement from PWC or the equivalent that shows that there are revenues streams of a magnitude that would enable mathematical sustainability, and by the way, rebates are not guaranteed is not a sufficient answer?”
3) “Donna, Entertained has also done a rigorous mathematical analysis using the most recent payout rate in AVG and that analysis shows that from this point forward 84% of people who put money into AVG will wind up losing money, so why should I put money into AVG at this point, or in the alternative, please debunk Entertained’s analysis and tell use how many of us will wind up losing money?”
4) “Donna, CORRECTION! has posted publicly that no one has ever even gotten more than 50% of their original investment back on the money that they have put into AVG, so with that data why should I put my money into AVG and can you provide an audited document from PWC or equivalent that validates or refutes CORRECTION!’s statement because I am concerned that the early members have in fact extracted a lot of money from AVG and I will get far less than I expected?”
5) “Donna, if I put $1000 into AVG what is my expected return one year from today, including return of principle if any, because I want to know if I will be ahead or in the hole, and by how much, and of course I would like to see a breakdown of expected returns on my investment/impression purchase?”
6) “Donna, it has been said that the ad conversion rate on AVG ads is between 10% and 37% so can you provide a document from PWC or equivalent that validates these data and if not why not?”
7) “Donna, your background in principle looks pretty good, so I am wondering why you would choose to join a company with as many legal unknowns as AVG knowing that if the unknowns turn out badly you will forever be tarred with the stigma of being a Ponzi Promoter and Ponzi insider, which will not go over well with any possible future Fortune 1000 companies you might want to consult with, because the internet is forever and some people might want to make sure your name is forever associated with the AVG scam if it is a scam which seems likely?”
8) “Donna, I understand why AVG would want to keep the details of their management team secret since many of them are people who have previously been convicted of felony fraud or at least charged with fraud, and many of them were involved in the ASD Ponzi scheme, but are there any plans to reveal exactly who is behind AVG so that prospective members can choose to cast their lot with the management including the convicted felons and previous fraudsters or choose not to join?”
I am sure you can come up with more……
CORRECTION!, see how nice I am? I am even giving Donna the questions in advance……
Correction!,
Thx for your previous post as well. Perhaps I am mistaken in that you are not a promoter of AVG (which would make me happy…..).
I did point out immediately that it WAS a rumor; I did not state it was factual. I ALWAYS discuss data types and label accordingly, whether the data is rumor, fact, liklihood, or derived. If the ASD restitution fund rumor was a possibility (I think it is a possibility, don’t know what the probability is), if it were me, I would take that possibility into account in any decision I made re: AVG. Seems to make sense to me; does it to you?
So Correction, are you currently building your downline now that the company has temporarily suspended cashouts and the daily VIP is so low?
I noticed how Donna stated today on their forum that again, “something new” will be rolling out next week. Why is it always something new next week? Or “something big” is happening… or “wait till you see what we have in store for you next”. It appears that it has always been a waiting game of sorts.
Regarding the questions by Entertained, do you really think that Donna would ever attempt to answer those on a conference call?
You misunderstood and misquoted my comment. Please, please, please…read what I wrote and don’t imeadiately use it against AVGA. I’m talking about Page Impressions and what part of there original cost may have been repaid through the VIP, not what anyone may have cashed out of AVGA. Referal bonuses can be cashed out and could have given some members much more income than they paid for advertising from the company’s 50% not the VIP. They are two seperate issues, and I don’t have figures to support whether that has happened or not. Man…you are so deliberate with your questions, and want everyone to respect you elivated status, and are so high and mighty in your tone. Please give a person’s answers some thought too.
You see why this never works. I am misquoted right out of the gate. I cannot be the spokesperson for anyone but myself. I’d like to be a part of this conversation for the sake of accuracy, but I must stop here. I just do not believe that good faith is a part of any of this. If you are in AVGA, go to the back office, webinars and conference calls for information. Avoid this venue at all costs. I need to heed my own advice…goodnight and goodbye! What a waste of my time!
Cathy G,
Joe:
Donna being a spokesperson does not cut it. She only can provide what information AVGA provides her. This is real simple, name the owner’s of AVGA. Name the Management Team of AVGA. You are a member, surely you can answer those basic questions right?
When a real owner or officer of the company will be on a call to answer questions, let me know, and I’ll do my best to be there. But I am not going to waste my time on some fluff spokesperson who will answer nothing of substance. Kind of sounds like Donna is the new Rayda, and we all know how accurate she was.
CORRECTION: Before you get to much of a big head about not having me (and Entertained) as part of your business associates or friends, you make a large assumption that I would even consider being a part of your friends and business associates. If you can’t see what is legal and illegal, why in the world would I want to even be associated with you? You bought the ASD lie, and now you are buying the AVGA lie. Not exactly a stellar track record is it, and you don’t want me as one of your friends and business associates? Please.
Donna is more than a spokesperson, she’s very much involved in managing the company. Who are you to say she won’t cut it? You don’t even know who she is. She IS the one you can ask. she is fully up on whatever is going on there, she’s not some puppet but you wouldn’t know that so I’m telling you. If she wasn’t running things she wouldn’t be take any and all questions live on the call. It’s her company that merged with AVGA so now that you have your little education you know.
Also idiot I’m not the one who said anything about not having you as an associate, not that I would but it wasn’t me.
You know that’s about the third time I can remember where you have mentioned how far above or far too smart or to sophisticated or whatever. anytime a guy feels he has to keep mentioning that it is a litte questionable. You don’t stike me as being all that sharp, certainly not the brilliant guy you try to come across as. I’ve known some not too bright lawyers in my time, some guys are just good as passing tests. You think your a math wizard? I know about three guys in AVGA who are pretty good with those spread sheets too and those are just the ones I know. I just thought I would mention it because your arrogance is a turn off and you sure don’t have me convinced of your prowess.
Joe:
First I never said it was you, I specifically addressed CORRECTION. Second, just because Donna’s company MERGED with AVGA does not mean squat, other than she merged her company with AVGA. So this notion that she knows all is bunk. She wasn’t there when AVGA started. But please keep you head up your a$$et$ about the legality of AVGA.
I still see you can’t name the owners of AVGA, nor the Management Team. Sure sounds like a company I would want to be a part of. Donna is the best you can do? Get real.
Let’s make this real simple for you. Only one question has to be answered to determine if AVGA is legal or illegal. Here it is: Name the outside sources of revenue for AVGA when they started their company, and how much revenue it was generating for AVGA day one? For if the answer is none, zero, nada, zilch, goose egg, AVGA is a PONZI and ILLEGAL. Since we know there was no outside revenue for AVGA when they started, they are ILLEGAL and a PONZI. There is no pass for it is coming soon, or give us two more weeks, or any other lame excuse they use. It has to be there day one. Otherwise it is an ASD clone only registered offshore.
Besides, I thought this was being run by PROFESSIONALS, and they had learned their mistakes from ASD. Yeah right. I think you still believe that ASD was legal too. Better hope the authorities don’t go too far down the food chain after ASD winners and promoter’s. You might find out just how illegal ASD really was, and it isn’t going to be a civil case filed against the “Promoter’s” either.
You’re about as thickheaded as I’ve seen , you don’t even know Donna and I don’t care if she was there in the beginning she’s there NOW and she is quite qualified to answer the questions. I don’t know why you can’t except that. the fact is you have no idea what the hell you are talking about and I think now that we have provided a person for you you don’t like that so you try to dismiss her. well thank god what you think doesn’t really matter. You sound like a broken record. Oh the owners name is Judith Harris so whats the big secret? Your the one that needs it to be made simple. Donna is the best you can do? That just shows how little you know. I might as well get on my knees are bark back at my dog. Get real
Joe:
As the resident idiot, according to you, glad to see you finally can name one owner of AVGA. I have known this information for quite some time, but found it amusing none of the AVGA members did until just recently. Kind of makes you wonder why now doesn’t it? Why all the big secrecy? Something to hide?
Let’s see, Judith Harris, of the ASD fame that had to surrrender property and cars in the Forgeiture in Rem. Now there’s a fine upstanding owner of a company for you. And yes the fact that Donna is a Johnny-come-lately to AVGA via merger, she is not qualified to discuss AVGA from day one. So when Judith Harris is going to be on the next call, and is willing to answer all questions let me know. By the way, do you know who the other owner(s) are?
You sure do like to make large assumptions about what people do and don’t know. You just might be shocked at just how much I really do know.
Botom line is AVGA was Illegal the day it opened its doors. All the window dressing and promises of things to come in a couple of weeks, next month, etc. don’t mean squat. You can’t be kinda pregnant, which AVGA has tried to be. Same pig as ASD, just another new dress and lipstick. Just because you change the color of the lipstick does not make it a new pig.
I know you still think that ASD was this great business model, but it was nothing more than the same old pay-to-click surf Ponzi, and it will soon be proven so in court.
Is Donna the Donna that is the wife of George Harris of AVG? If they are the same she worked at ADS in same capacity as she now does with AVG?
Answer this one Correction!Please!
CORRECTION!,
Thanks for the “Correction” — I did misunderstand your statements. Too bad, because if I did get it right, then AVG could be mathematically sustainable. I’d be happy to redo the analysis if you will indly post the exact payout scheme and process…..
Joe,
My apologies; I overreacted to Correction’s personal attack, and now to yours: Perhaps you are not the best judge of what is and what isn’t — you can’t even see a Ponzi scheme when you are in the middle of it and promoting it, or worse, maybe you can…..
Firstly, if Judy Harris is one of the owners, or the owner, then all the nonsense about there being no association with ASD has all been so much BS (which comes as no great surprise to anyone)
Judy Harris worked with Andy Bowdoin at ASD and was also the family spokesman after the raid. She is the wife of George Harris, son of Faye Bowdoin Harris. How anyone can take seriously the denial of relationship, both personal and financial with the Bowdoin Harris family and Andy Bowdoin, is beyond the imagination of most sane individuals!
Donna Rougeau is with Syndicate Digital, Canada, who have an “alliance” with AVGA to provide web marketing services. There has been no announcement that we are aware of to indicate that she is either a shareholder or manager of AVGA, although she is clearly their spokeswoman of choice at present. Her legal status within AVGA is not clear, nor where she speaks with their legal authority or not.
PS: Joe, sincerely, thank you. I appreciate insightful feedback that I can use. You are correct; my tone will change.
Lynn,
Another question for Donna Rougeau:
“Donna, I see on one of your web profiles — http://www.google.com/profiles/116530432198085520299 — that you claim to have provided work for the British Columbia Attorney General and you are using that to drum up more business for yourself, so do you think that the BC AG would be interested that his office is now being linked indirectly to help someone promote a new alleged Ponzi scheme?”
Alayscia
Thanks for the clarification about Donna and Judy Harris
Joe, David,Correction & Co.,
When a set of TE owners “set on me” for promoting ASD, they were so gross that I dismissed their ponzi claims as “twisted abuse”. Why? Because of their aggressive tone and insults. It was only AFTER the Secret Service stopped the investment side of ASD (though not the advertising rotator) and the news of the real background of the Founder, owner and president came to light, that I started asking questions.
Thanks to many well mannered people who dislike fraud and had the patience to explain the WHY, I came to understand WHY ASD was a ponzi operation. I also came to understand that the complex business model was just so much smoke and mirror and that I had fallen for a lot of lies as well.
However this treatment of AVGA supporter is NOT the case with the majority of the writers on this blog and other forums. They are generally courteous, but do ask questions. People are trying to explain to others WHY AVGA is not the legitimate sustainable model it claims to be. None of these explanations have been refuted in the normal way with facts and data. The only defence I have seen for AVGA is to attack the critics.
All businesses, especially “new models” receive criticism. The vast of majority of them are able to defend themselves with facts and figures and the criticism doest stick. AVGA have chosen not to answer questions freely, including in their forums. Awkward questions are deleted, as are critical posts by their own paying members.
Contrary to what I expect you believe, most people here would love to discover that AVGA is legitimate and sustainable and you have been given many chances to demonstrate it. The reality is that neither you nor any other member of AVGA has been able or willing to demonstrate this.
All we have to date is strong evidence that it is neither legal nor sustainable You can still have the chance to prove to the world that this is wrong, but you must do it in the normal professional way, with facts and figurs, if you wish your arguments to have any credibility. A debate on who told who to F*** Off is not proof of anything other than your ability to speak anglo saxon.
And, of course, there are a number of long term observers of “the scene”who have decided it is unlikely there are going to be many, if any “innocents” involved in AVG.
Instead, AVG membership has been made up of professional “playas” who got in early and exited at the first signs of a downturn. Then,there are the “Corrections” and “Joes” who, for reasons known only to themselves, have decided to deliberately ignore all attempts, both official and unofficial, to help them avoid loss.
Therefore, these observers have made a conscious decision to respect the oft quoted rights of the “Corrections” and “Joes” to spend (or throw away) their hard earned. Instead, they make better use of their time contacting those in positions of authority who DO listen.
After all, “you can lead a horse to water etc etc etc”
There’s one really, really satisfying thing about being a “naysayer” in the HYIP/autosurf arena.
Naysayers are NEVER wrong.
Very well said, Alasycia. The critics just want people to look behind the curtain as the “complex business model” is nothing more than the Wizard’s booming voice. We are not “dream killers” and “generally negative people” as has been alleged in many cases although the critics can be as abusive and insensitive as the promoters.
I am very happy that you can see what was going on in ASD and what is going on in AVG. I am even happier that you are posting about it as, in my experience, 90% of people don’t post. They evaluate, rightly or wrongly, the credibility of a program by who’s winning the forum boxing match…which has zero relevance when it comes to the legality and sustainability of a program.
Those that have followed your “pre-conversion” posts supporting ASD and found you credible will take you seriously when you say you’ve changed your mind. And that’s a huge help in getting people to reassess their involvement in these types of schemes. The is hope in those instances. Those that refuse to take a hard look at these schemes even after several failures, will likely head down the Arby’s Indians “government does not want me to pay more taxes by getting ahead” line of “reasoning”.
And, of course, there are a number of long term observers of “the sceneâ€who have decided it is unlikely there are going to be many, if any “innocents†involved in AVG.
LRM,
Irrespective of this, it is very clear that the naysayers who offer information and explanations to those involved in ponzi schemes, and who do so courteously, achieve far more and are listened to by many more people than those who mock and sneer. It has worked with those of us from ASD who will never make the same mistake again and has prevented many people from joining up with AVGA. Without their warnings and explanations, many more might have joined.
It may come as a surprise, but even after the Secret Service raid, there are still tens of thousand of ASD members who have never heard of or read TG, ASA, WWSN, MMG, NMF, Warrior, scam.com, WAH or any other internet marketing forum. They have depended entirely on the information received from their uplines and/or the company. In the present economic climate, the playas know how to market off line and trap the desperate. There is still a lot of work to be done to educate the world wide web.
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