DEVELOPING STORY: JSS/JBP’s Frederick Mann Tells Americans, Canadians That Company Is Paying Them With Money From ‘New Members’ And That Firm’s Theoretical Income Streams May Be Insufficient To ‘Pay The 2 Percent’
“Where does JustBeenPaid get the money to pay that kind of interest?” — Caller “Michael” from “San Francisco” in March 15 JSS Tripler/JustBeenPaid conference call
“Well, first of all, JBP or JSS Tripler is a revenue-sharing program, so that means some of the money comes from new members buying positions. Then, we are in the process of developing additional income streams, so that’s relevant. And eventually the additional income streams may be sufficient to pay the 2 percent — maybe not.” — Response by Frederick Mann, purported JBP/JSS operator, to “Michael’s” question, March 15, 2012
Frederick Mann
UPDATED 7:26 P.M. EDT (U.S.A.) In yet-another bizarre conference call for JSS Tripler/JustBeenPaid, the “program’s” purported operator told listeners from the United States and Canada (and possibly from Jamaica) that JSS/JBP is paying them with money sent in by “new members.”
Using “new” money to pay “old” members is the central element of a Ponzi scheme — although Frederick Mann did not use the phrase. Still, it was the white elephant in the conference room, and Mann’s explanations during the March 15 call became increasingly complex, vague and incongruous.
Mann, for instance, declined to say where the program was operating from, repeating his practice of nondisclosure from previous calls.
What’s important, he explained, “is that our programs are not U.S.-based. We don’t have any offices in the U.S. Our servers are not in the U.S.”
The explanation caused a chuckling U.S. caller to quip, “Yeah. I agree. Somewhere out in the galaxy.”
“Yes,” Mann replied to the caller’s “galaxy” remark. The caller earlier had described himself during the March 15 call as a “financial planner” for 22 years. In a previous call, the caller said he was in “California” and had family in Iowa.
And Mann advised listeners that it was OK to call JSS/JBP an investment program when they were recruiting new members — guidance that seemed to catch even the conference-call host off-guard.
“And I know that, in the [separate conference] room, we do try to say ‘purchase’ and ‘repurchase’ as opposed to ‘invest’ and ‘reinvest,'” the female host said.
It is common for HYIP scams and their purveyors to seek to avoid the language of investments when promoting “programs” — on the errant belief that avoiding such language insulates them from prosecution.
The female host did not say why the other room was giving one set of instructions and Mann another. Regardless, internal inconsistencies are one of the hallmarks of HYIP scams, and it is well-known that wordplay designed to disguise securities fraud cannot insulate purveyors from prosecution — rather like a robber who uses a gun to snatch the purse of an 80-year-old woman cannot avoid prosecution by calling the robbery an innocent exercise in arranging a loan and insisting that the gun was a harmless piece of metal that just happened to be at the scene.
Mann, whose name appears in 2008 materials identifying him as a promoter of the alleged AdSurfDaily Ponzi scheme, said nothing about whether JSS/JBP had any securities registrations or whether promoters of the “program” were risking a legal calamity by recruiting downlines into a scheme that does not identify itself with a nation-state and whose payout corresponds to a preposterous annualized return of 730 percent .
The bank accounts of some individual ASD promoters were seized by the U.S. Secret Service in the ASD Ponzi case, according to court filings. JSS/JBP purports to pay a daily return double that of ASD.
Income Streams Are Theoretical; ‘Free’ Members Dominate JSS/JBP
The most troubling explanation — among any number of troubling explanations during the 1:11 call — was Mann’s assertion in response to a question from “Michael” of “San Francisco” about where JSS/JBP gets the money to pay a return of 2 percent a day. (The exchange is noted in the breakout quotes at the top of this story.)
Conceding that the company uses money from “new members” who buy “positions” to make the payouts, Mann simultaneously acknowledged that the “program” was “in the process” of developing new income streams and that those still-theoretical streams may be insufficient to sustain the scheme.
But the company’s “restart” feature, Mann suggested, was enough to defeat any concerns that the firm’s liabilities exceeded its assets.
“The 2 percent that the company pays is effectively a liability to the company,” Mann said. “But what the ‘restart’ makes possible is to convert some or even all of these liabilities into assets in the form of JSS positions.”
Even so, members needed “to bring in new members with new money,” Mann said. He later asserted that only “about 25 percent” of new registrants “put in money.”
“Maybe 75 percent of people do nothing,” Mann said, a problematic response because the program advertises that it provides registrants a $10 credit (described during the March 15 call as a loan) for joining and pays them interest of 20 cents a day until they realize a profit of $5 after 75 days.
When JSS/JBP debits a member’s account to recapture the purported loan, which apparently is made at an interest rate of zero percent, the company still is on the hook for the $5 due the new subscriber.
Speaking with a South African accent but using an American baseball metaphor, Mann said the lion’s share of JSS/JBP new members (about 75 percent) do nothing after enrolling
If the JSS/JBP program were baseball, Mann suggested, “The pitcher would pitch the ball, and they would watch it go by, they would just stand there.”
If Mann’s assertions are true, it means that only 25 percent of JSS/JBP’s members are propping up 100 percent of the enterprise, including the purported $5 profit due new registrants in 75 days and much larger payments due other members. Even if JSS/JBP enforces a cash-out minimum higher than $5 to prevent a flood a small redemptions, such a device leads to questions about whether the purported $10 credit is just a smaller scam within a larger scam that permits accrued liabilities to be ignored.
Much remains mysterious about JSS/JBP’s purported restarts and its in-house accounting methods. Other HYIPs have used similar devices to duck the Ponzi issue. But with its “restart” explanation, JSS/JBP may be inviting questions about whether is has introduced Enron-like accounting tricks into the morass.
Enron’s 2001 collapse revealed one of the greatest financial scandals in U.S. history. It destroyed not only the company, but also the Arthur Andersen accounting firm. (See “Enron scandal” Wikipedia entry.)
Is JSS/JBP a miniature Enron-in-waiting?
Among the callers who asked questions during the call was a JSS/JBP member who described himself as “Earl,” a 79-year-old man interested in leaving money for his daughter.
Also on the line was a man who suggested he hailed from Jamaica and wanted to start a JSS/JBP account for a “nonprofit, for a school that I have, that I attended in Jamaica.”
Other callers identified themselves as residents of the Canadian provinces of British Columbia and Alberta and the U.S. states of California, South Dakota, Texas, Georgia, Missouri and Louisiana.
One caller asked Mann why electronic payments from JSS/JBP came from “Michael” at a BigBooster.com email address, not an email address associated with the JSS/JBP domains.
“Michael is a business partner, and he handles some of the finances,” Mann said. He did not identify “Michael” by a last name.
Mann also advised callers that JSS/JBP had two representatives in Italy, but did not speak to the JSS/JBP-related probe involving the program’s affiliates announced by the Italian securities regular CONSOB in January.
One caller informed Mann that his downline recruits has put in “substantial” sums. Another complained that his account had been debited weeks in advance of the anticipated debit. Another complained that the website was unattractive to potential recruits and looked like a scam. Yet another fretted that the site appeared to lack a secure connection (https). Still another complained that his “matrices” did not appear to be cycling properly.
HYIPs are infamous for creating one set of expectations and then changing the rules at midstream. They’re also infamous for their convoluted explanations and fuzzy — if not downright impossible — math.
Like ASD’s Andy Bowdoin — now under indictment amid charges that he orchestrated an international Ponzi scheme that had gathered at least $110 million — Mann has been accorded the description of “genius” in promotions for the program.
Well I guess it has to be a first! A ponzi program owner admitting that he pays old members out of new members money – in classic ponzi formula – AND recognizing that he is selling unregistered securities to people in the United States. Not bad.
LORM wrote: Well I guess it has to be a first! A ponzi program owner admitting that he pays old members out of new members money – in classic ponzi formula – AND recognizing that he is selling unregistered securities to people in the United States. Not bad.
I replied:
It’s brazen, to be sure. Perhaps the most disturbing thing is that it potentially creates liability for otherwise law-abiding promoters while their money also is at risk.
Whether Fred is a “sovereign citizen” or sympathizer is an open question. But what can be said is that “sovereigns” and/or antigovernment extremists often have histories that include putting other people in legal jeopardy while they advance their harebrained schemes.
For some background on the “sovereign citizen” movement:
https://patrickpretty.com/2012/02/27/special-report-domain-registered-to-purported-jss-tripler-operator-features-videos-of-sovereign-citizen-accused-in-alleged-alaska-murder-plot-against-public-officials-meanwhile-americans-listen/
https://patrickpretty.com/2012/01/24/bulletin-alaska-sovereign-citizens-charged-in-new-indictment-feds-say-francis-schaeffer-cox-had-armed-security-force-that-stoped-private-citizens-without-lawful-authority-and-under-the-f/
https://patrickpretty.com/2011/11/27/bulletin-in-affidavit-fbi-counterterrorism-agent-cites-passage-from-alleged-kenneth-wayne-leaming-email-that-references-kids-of-u-s-chief-justice-john-roberts-and-their-school/
https://patrickpretty.com/2012/01/31/dialing-up-the-bizarre-prisoner-who-reportedly-once-stole-tractor-trailer-full-of-canned-beans-and-later-followed-sovereign-citizen-bleatings-convicted-of-running-tax-scam-from-jail/
https://patrickpretty.com/2011/08/17/fbi-sovereign-citizen-domestic-extremists-throughout-the-united-states-are-perpetrating-mortgage-fraud-and-debt-elimination-schemes-and-coaching-others-to-do-so/
https://patrickpretty.com/2011/07/25/washington-state-man-sentenced-to-25-years-in-foreclosure-relief-scam-judge-calls-jeff-mcgrue-heartless-fbi-says-he-issued-nonexistent-bonded-promissory-notes-purportedly-drawn-on-u-s-t/
https://patrickpretty.com/2011/07/05/sovereign-citizen-81-arrested-in-arizona-on-federal-charges-of-making-false-claims-marshall-home-hawked-foreclosure-rescue-scheme-and-sought-to-place-united-states-in-bankruptcy-feds-say/
https://patrickpretty.com/2011/07/02/government-sues-washington-state-man-once-imprisoned-for-possessing-explosive-device-john-lloyd-kirk-now-accused-of-pushing-redemption-tax-scam-anti-defamation-leagues-brief-on-kirk-on-same-we/
Patrick
No not really. I can remember several “programs” being promoted at talkgold etc which, instead of using Oprah or Mr Spock to promote, used Charles Ponzi. They used domains like “itsaponzi.com” or “hyipponzi.com” or similar.
Let’s not forget “www.wearescammers.com which did the rounds in April/May of 2006
“We are not financial experts not are we traders. Who are we?
We are business minded people who run several HYIPs. We have earned an average of US$150,000 per month through our business. We are the largest network that run HYIPs. Our businesses have the highest ROI than other HYIPs”
There also was the one bizarrely called “Cash Tanker,” which, like JSS/JBP, purported to pay 2 percent a day. Among other things, it used Jesus Christ as its pitchman. A poster on the old pro-ASD “Surf’s Up” forum pitched Cash Tanker and three others, as part of a “Don’t put all of your eggs in one basket” pitch.
All of the “programs” collapsed. Included in the “eggs” promo was Genius Funds, which Canadian authorities later said had gathered $400 million.
The explanations concerning the collapse of Gold Nugget Invest — another “opportunity” in the “eggs” collection — were so bizarre they almost defied description:
https://patrickpretty.com/2010/01/15/reports-gold-nugget-invest-gni-has-collapsed-belize-issued-warning-in-november-but-program-pitched-on-surfs-up-in-december/
Notably, there were government warnings about the “program” (dating back to November 2009) even as the shills were promoting it in December 2009, a situation also in play with JSS/JBP. (CONSOB, the Italian securities regulator, announced a JSS/JBP-related probe two months ago, on Jan. 23.)
Memory Lane:
https://patrickpretty.com/2010/01/18/partial-list-gni-just-latest-failed-scheme-promoted-by-adsurfdaily-members-one-program-after-another-pushed-by-promoters-has-collapsed/
Patrick
[…] the March 15 call, Mann told members that JSS/JBP was paying them with money from “new members” and that […]
I have been studying the question as to what makes JustBeenPaid and JSS Tripler a sustainable, legal and ethical income opportunity. At first glance, one thinks it is just another HYIP here today, gone tomorrow program. However, what I have found tells me this is different.
The answer is a confluence of compensation structures working together that are designed to offset the weaknesses found so often in other similar looking HYIP type programs. From my review, the proprietary software and sophisticated algorithms used by Mann’s computer engineers seem to provide a computation that, when executed, will proceed through a finite number of well defined successive states, eventually producing output and terminating at a final expiration date.
This mechanism acts as a form of regulator between two or more separate compensation systems. Should any one system become unbalanced, the account funds are transferred into a separate integrated system. This transfer, or as some call it, the restart may cause a temporary decrease in a members account balance which may be recovered over a longer period of time. This built in regulator appears to be the proprietary method behind the infinate sustainability claim.
Another factor I see that contributes to this systems longevity seems to be the cycle time of the JSS portion of the compensation structure and the retirement of the principal funds as profits are generated. This dissolving basis is something quite different than one would find in a typical ponzi where the basis of funds remains and earnings are compounded on top of the remaining basis amount. Just Been Paid and JSS do not appear to be similar in any way to that typical failed ponzi description.
You know they say it’s important not to judge a book by it’s cover. Yes, it’s easy to make an assumption on the words used on a phone call or written on a chart screen, but when I look closely at JustBeenPaid, I see something quite the opposite of what has been portrayed on this website.
You wasted quite a bit of time doing any ‘study’ and then typing a say nothing diatribe trying to justify scamming. You did not once address where the money is coming from legally – which none is as this is a ponzi as ADMITTED by the ‘owner’, and what is ethically correct about stealing.
Kevin,
“Confluence” is an interesting choice of words.
You’ll see a federal judge use it in this ruling in the AdSurfDaily Ponzi case:
http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/district-of-columbia/dcdce/1:2008cv01345/132509/35/0.pdf?ts=1230385000
Look for it on Page 16, but I’d recommend you read all of 16 — and the entire ruling.
I started my comment to you a couple of hours ago, but then had to take some time to projectile-vomit. I’m feeling better now. (The last time I projectile-vomited like that was when Gold Nugget Invest was explaining its “financial vortex.”
https://patrickpretty.com/2010/01/15/reports-gold-nugget-invest-gni-has-collapsed-belize-issued-warning-in-november-but-program-pitched-on-surfs-up-in-december/
Kevin, please list the names of the “computer engineers.” Please explain how you’ve arrived that the conclusion that JSS/JBP uses “sophisticated algorithms.”
Please explain why, despite the purported “sophisticated algorithms,” Mann says he’s making the payouts from money sent in by “new members.”
OK. I had to take time out again to projectile-vomit. But I’m back to being OK again.
I don’t believe there is any sophistication in play at all. I believe it is a virtual certainty that the steroidal puppeteers and Fred are pulling things out of their [lower backsides marked by a crease.]
How can anybody “look closely” at a company that won’t even tell investors sending it hundreds or thousands of dollars at a time where it is operating from?
I’m wondering: What securities registrations in which countries does JSS/JBP hold? In what country is it based? Why are all the processors “offshore” from a U.S. perspective? Where does JSS/JBP do its banking? Who is its accountant? Who is its attorney? What consumer-protection laws does JSS/JBP follow? How does a U.S. member go about getting back his/her money when the processors are all offshore? Will Fred write them a check and put it in the mail?
You say you’ve “look[ed] closely” at the program. How can that be a credible claim if you can’t answer any of these questions? And if you can’t answer them, how could it be that you looked closely?
If 10,000 people join JSS/JBP on a given day and each gets a $10 credit in fantasy money for doing so, does it not put JSS/JBP in a $100,000 hole?
And if those 10,000 members then get a combined $50,000 in real money after 75 days for doing nothing but parking the credit they received in fantasy money, where does that $50,000 come from?
Even if JSS/JBP reaches back into the 10,000 member accounts and debits them $10 each from the fantasy money they received, isn’t that debit itself a fantasy — one with a net of ZERO and an attached, new liability of $50,000 in real money??
Perhaps this is the new “sovereign” math?
Patrick
Well, it appears my observations have aroused some emotional and uneasiness in the stomach of a few. Well, I must say that when I see the crimes of financial institutions such as MF Global, the central bank fractional reserve ponzi system, and even various government ponzi’s such as medicare and social security, I have to ask, what makes these obvious ponzi’s okay with people, but on the other hand, a private organization like Just Been Paid gets raked over the hot coals?
When I look at Mann’s system, it is clear to me he has built in a release valve to his tripler system. He clearly states that if one account gets overloaded, it gets transferred into the separate matrix whereby the member must complete a 2×2 matrix grid to profit. What could be more clear?
In other words, he is telling his members that if at any time the system becomes unsustainable, the system moves the members funds into the new structure. Why is that a scam? He tells the members this fact up front.
So tell me where exactly is the scam? And in regards to disclosure, since when is a private member organization required to disclose. Why don’t you ask the private Federal Reserve to disclose all of its member bank worldwide who participate in the banking cartel? Why don’t you ask them why they refuse to allow an audit of their books? Who gave them permission to take your tax dollars and bailout banks in Greece and Italy?
What I’m saying is, if you want to puke, start from the top.
You really, really DO need to learn the difference between “literal” and “figurative” and “analogy and “metaphor”
In a few short weeks “Kevin” “Frederick Mann” and “Just Been Paid” will filed under “just another HYIP ponzi game” in ‘net history.
In short, the only people who actually DO care are apologists and victims.
Even the serious HYIP ponzi players are long gone from this one.
That’s fine with me. The point I’m making is, people who get into these online things do so with their eyes wide open. They know darn well what the risks are. It’s the people who get duped by the so called legitimate government approved ponzi’s that really get hurt. I don’t know Frederick Mann from a hole in the wall, but at least he explains on his site that there are two options should one side of his system get unsustainable. That’s a big difference from those ASD and Gold Nugget deals that said nothing.
The bottom line is, the entire World is under control of crooks and gangsters at all levels. The only guaranteed safe place for money today is under the mattress in your bedroom.
Still better do some more research. Mann admitted it was a ponzi. How much more clearer could it be? Yet, your alleged research has failed to find that.
Really ???
And, you know this, how, exactly ???
Not one victim, eh ??
Well, I’ll be.
I’m not defending anyone. My point in opening this discussion was to bring light to the big picture. If you want to write articles attacking ponzi’s, then let’s begin at the top shall we:
1. Social Security
2. Medicare & Medicaid
3. All Federal Reserve Banks
4. All insurance companies
5. All investment companies offering leveraged ETF’s (derivatives)
I could go on and on. And here’s the bad news. The Justice Department will do nothing to these investment firms. Do you see John Corzine arrested? So what’s the difference between legalized ponzi’s and illegal ponzi’s. So where do you draw the line? What’s the difference? Why aren’t you writing about all ponzi’s and protecting your readers?
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw57BS3uBcA
And there’s me, looking for my signed Bryan Marsden Handbook, and “Kevin” helpfully posts the first few chapter titles from the table of contents.
Your alleged ‘research’ (that was clearly never done) still sucks. lol. Try and defend your scam all you want. Mann himself admitted it is a ponzi. All you scammers pull out the ‘ebil gubmint’ card when ya got nuthin’.
My scam? Since when did I take ownership of anything. I shared observations and nothing more. If someone admitted something was something, then who am I to try and prove a negative through research? And Whip, I don’t know where you come off calling people scammers who only want to bring up points nobody wants to talk about.
Sounds like you support ‘ebil gubment’ but don’t support evil non-gubment scammers. Isn’t all ebil still ebil to use your verbage? Or, is gubment ebil okay for you and then guys like Corzine rip off your momma’s life savings and when you try to get your money back, the court appointed receiver working on behalf of the crooks tells you, I’m sorry, but your momma’s gubment insured investments were actually not insured. Sorry, but the best we can do is give her 30% of her account that is recovered, less legal fees of course.
This video says it all…
Here’s a thought:
why don’t you try something like:
“I was wrong”
Mostly because there are too many Ponzis to cover. I write about as many Ponzis as I’m able, but I can’t write about all of them, so I try to focus on the online ones.
The assertion that I’m a cheerleader for the government gets made somewhat regularly. Some of the folks have implied I’m an undercover agent and/or a “plant” and/or a stooge for the global elite, the true powers. I’ve also been accused (by implication) of being a tool for Israel and a shill for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Of course, I’ve also been accused of being a “liberal.” One guy who cited his “conservative” credentials claimed it would have been understandable had my mother decided to abort me. Some of the folks appear to be aghast that I’d ever report on law enforcement in a favorable light.
It’s my Blog; I’ll begin where I want to. To be clear: The Social Security/Medicare/Federal Reserve/insurance “argument” often gets trotted out in stories about HYIPs.
The “argument” is disingenuous to the core. Even if you are right — which is to say that even if you could prove Social Security, etc., are Ponzi schemes — it still does not confer a “right” on a “private” business to operate a Ponzi scheme.
All kinds of red herrings get introduced in all kinds of HYIPs. Many extreme arguments have been introduced — for example, a purported “attorney” for the Gold Quest International “opportunity” argued that GQI enjoyed sovereignty in Las Vegas (via Panama) that somehow was portable from an “Indian” tribe in North Dakota. (He’s scheduled to be released from federal prison in 2018, after serving his time for threatening federal judges in an unrelated case and filing false liens.)
One of the mainstays of the AdSurfDaily story once argued that a federal judge overseeing a separate fraud case in Utah had to recuse himself because the judge owed him $30 million. The same guy accused the ASD judge of “TREASON.”
Another ASD story mainstay went on to file false liens against the ASD judge, according to the allegations. Another ASD story mainstay ended up getting sentenced to prison for tax fraud — this after he started a purported nonprofit in the name of a man accused of murdering a woman in cold blood and trying to gun down a police officer. (The gunman later was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.)
If I’m reading you correctly, you’d want me to spend my time exposing the Social Security scam and the long-running Federal Reserve conspiracy.
Perhaps you should start your own Blog (if you haven’t done so already) to expose those alleged scams. Meantime, I’ll do what I do . . .
Patrick
OOPs, another one who doesn’t understand the difference between an insurance scheme and a ponzi.
Shall I make it really easy?
In a ponzi scheme, the old members get the new members money. The newest members end up with nothing as there is nothing left to pay with. These schemes are illegal in nearly all the countries in the world as they are fraudulent. People join them to make money.
In an insurance scheme, members pay into a regulated general fund, often interest bearing (for the fund) and monies are paid out to members in relation to their entitlement or need – which has rarely anything to do with whether they joined first or last. These schemes are legal, are not fraudulent and pay out of funds that are there for the purpose. People join INSURANCE schemes to cover future possible needs and not to make money.
If you STILL don’t understand the difference, I suggest you insure your car with a ponzi scheme next time and hope and pray they pay out if you have an accident in the first month and that the older members haven’t run of with the money.
The structure is the same. Regulated only means they know that everyone insured is not going to file a claim. Just as banks hope all depositors don’t want their money back the same day. The ponzi is still there but “regulated”. That was my original comparison. At least FM put all his cards on the table and explained in detail how the system was set up to handle the imbalance. Right or wrong, that’s anyone’s opinion. But everything was there in plain view.
To be honest, my anger was a result of my own displeasure with government agencies allowing fraudsters to hurt my own family. That was the big point of my adding comments to this article. To me, this is the worst kind of fraud. The kind that hides behind a so called “regulated” government approved smoke screen. Those are the ones that really hurt people. Not these small five and dime HYIP’s and other online play toys.
There is no way that this is the venue for a major discussion on the conduct of the banks and I, for one, am not going to start to defend some of the barbarous things that have happened in the world as a direct result of their misconduct – but that is the result of BREAKING laws or inadequate legislation and is not representative of the system that is meant to be in place.
Your comment however that “regulated only means that everyone insured isnt going to file a claim on the same day” is totally incorrect, bordering on asinine.
Regulated, as anyone should know, means regulated by LAW. It means that businesses and organization who run any kind of insurance scheme have to be legally registered with any number of bodies – both governmental and professional, including the tax man, the SEC; that they have to account for every cent that they receive and pay out, and keep financial records. They CANNOT operate in an unknown location with no financial or corporate registration.
They do not operate on “taking a chance that not everyone claims on the same day”. They underwrite their own risks, they make professional calculations as to projected usage and are obliged to protect their members BY LAW. Premiums are generally calculated after some very sophisticated research. There are no victims because they cannot pay – it doesnt work like that.
Fred Mann did indeed put his cards of the table when he recognised he was running an illegal ponzi.
But you know all this, don’t you?
And, by the way – those “small five and dime HYIP’s and other online play toys” end up totalling BILLIONS of dollars in black money, and often contain highly toxic funds which are laundered through these same “insignificant HYIPS”
You dont know where the money comes from or goes to, but money laundering is a popular actity in organized crime
JSS/JBP is so “private” that its Terms make members affirm they are not government spies or media lackeys. It’s like a bad spy novel.
Legisi, a Ponzi scheme that gathered $72 million and resulted in a sea of civil litigation and criminal charges against pitchmen, had similar Terms. The Terms were reproduced as part of a 267-page evidence exhibit given a federal judge who ordered an asset freeze.
From a transcript of a May 2007 U.S. Secret Service recording in which undercover agents posing as investors were talking to Legisi’s Gregory McKnight:
__________________________________________________________________________
McKnight: ” . . . it is not an investment.”
Agent 1: “Okay.”
McKnight: “I hope you have any idea — if you have any inkling of an idea that it is an investment, then you should really . . .”
Agent 1: “I’m sorry.”
McKnight: “This is a loan to my corporation.”
Agent 1: “Okay.”
“Agent 2: “What’s the difference?”
McKnight: “The difference is — if I am selling investments and I am not registered with the SEC, I am going to prison.”
Agent 2: “Oh.”
__________________________________________________________________________
McKnight later was charged civilly with selling unregistered securities. There are millions of dollars of civil judgments against him, and he pleaded guilty to a criminal charge of wire fraud.
JSS/JBP has a similar Terms of Service. Meanwhile, purveyors have insisted they were not selling investments, a story at odds with the story Frederick Mann is telling
From the PP Blog story above:
__________________________________________________________________________
And Mann advised listeners that it was OK to call JSS/JBP an investment program when they were recruiting new members — guidance that seemed to catch even the conference-call host off-guard.
“And I know that, in the [separate conference] room, we do try to say ‘purchase’ and ‘repurchase’ as opposed to ‘invest’ and ‘reinvest,’” the female host said.
__________________________________________________________________________
JSS/JBP and its own pitchmen can’t even agree on the story they are going to tell prospects. With the Terms — and the various internal inconsistencies of JSS/JBP — investors are at great risk. And the risk may not be limited to loss of money. It could morph into a loss of freedom.
JSS/JBP purports to pay a daily return that is EIGHT times higher than Legisi’s initial base return of .25 percent per day.
JSS/JBP is dangerous. Its purveyors may be at risk of both civil and criminal prosecution. Legisi-like claims that it is a “private” program and that the purported privacy somehow makes it bulletproof are reckless beyond measure.
Matthew Gagnon was a Legisi pitchmen now facing millions of dollars in civil judgments and a criminal complaint. The argument he tried to advance to a federal judge didn’t fly.
Among other things, Gagnon told the SEC that “only McKnight truly knew what was going on” and that “[w]hen we questioned McKnight we were told some if it was none of our business.”
So, McKnight tried to play the privacy card — and Gagnon tried to rely on the card McKnight was playing to create a defense of “ignorance” for Gagnon.
But here is what the judge said, according to federal court filings:
“Thus, Gagnon’s claimed ignorance demonstrates his liability because he represented to his investors that he had fully researched McKnight and the Legisi Program.”
JSS/JBP pitchmen repeating the lines of purported operator Frederick Mann may be out on the limb even further than Gagnon was out on the limb for Legisi/McKnight.
They are selling a “program” that does not even say where it is operating from while at once making members affirm they are not with the “government.” Even as they are doing this, a JSS/JBP-related probe by the Italian securities regulator CONSOB is under way, and JSS/JBP — which has no known securities registrations — is telling promoters it’s OK to call JSS/JBP an investment program.
Good luck arguing “privacy” or “ignorance” under those circumstances.
Patrick
A year ago my son invested in a commodity online program whereby the SEC allowed the scammers to post the SEC website on their website listing all the trades by this company. When the SEC began it’s investigation of CO, knowing full well the numbers made no sense, they continued to allow the company to advertise the SEC website on their site. This was clear enticement by the SEC to allow a company under investigation to use its government website as a lure. My son invested based on this SEC cooperation and to date has not received one dime from the receiver assigned to collect on the case for victims. So my anger towards government is justified because the reality is, it’s all one big scam. Those with the power can freely scam those without the power and get away with it, or be fined some token amount and never see a jail cell. Patrick I understand this is your blog and you chose to focus on HYIP’s and that is fine by me. It allowed me to vent some frustration over the lack of interest by other bloggers to reveal why all the big scammers like Corzine continue to get a slap on the wrist while small time crooks pay the heavy toll.
What would be your suggestion as to how the SEC could have asked the company in question to kindly remove the SEC reference from its’ website without tipping them off that they were being investigated ??
Remembering that this is the real world and not TV where a complete criminal investigation can be completed in 60 minutes which includes 20 minutes for ad breaks.
How long would you estimate it takes to complete one of these investigations, given the level of proof required to obtain a conviction ??
While it’s entirely fashionable to blame “them” or the government, the fact remains the fraudster/s are solely responsible for what happened to your son and other victims.
The authorities are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to dealing with fraud and fraudsters.
Jump in too early and the fraudsters walk away untouched and, even worse, a great many of the victims will blame the agencies for killing their golden goose (research AdSurf Daily and Andy Bowdoin if you want to see some REAL vitriol served up to prosecutors)
Allow adequate time to complete a thorough investigation and successful prosecution, and the “Kevins” of the world are up in arms.
Rock and hard place.
What case are you talking about, Kevin? How do you know the SEC “allowed” the scammers to do anything?
The reason I ask is that it is not unusual for scammers to imply they have a relationship with the government and/or the government has vetted their “opportunity.”
There have been cases in which scammers effectively stole government materials such as official seals and logos and worked them into their scams.
Those are among the allegations this week in a new CFTC fraud case in Idaho:
https://patrickpretty.com/2012/04/12/bulletin-idaho-man-ran-forex-ponzi-scheme-and-duped-investors-with-fake-asset-freeze-and-forged-documents-purporting-to-be-from-cftc-official-and-judge-brad-lee-demuzio-sued-civilly-charged-crimina/
Please cite the specific case you’re talking about and provide a link to a news release or official document/complaint that references the litigation.
Patrick
Since all I get is government brown nosing on this blog, I guess there is no reason to continue. Now I understand how that accountant who tipped off the SEC about Madoff felt. They ignored him and turned a blind eye. The company you request was Commodities Online out of Florida. I don’t recall the case information.
Sad really.
The old adage “you can lead a horse to water” etc is never more appropriate than in the period between a ponzi being exposed and it’s inevitable collapse, either due to prosecution or simple mathematics.
Ooops wrong link – Patrick – can you delete it please
THIS Commodities Online?
http://www.commoditiesonline.com/
So,
pointing out that investigating and prosecuting fraud cases takes a lot more time than the man in the street realizes has become “government brown nosing” eh ???
I guess there are no prizes on offer for guessing how that attitude works out for you, are there “Kevin” ???
It’s your “right” to behave as you wish, but, everyone else has to behave exactly as YOU want.
Nice.
Kevin,
How is the alleged Commodities Online fraud the SEC’s fault?
If you’re arguing that it’s the SEC’s fault because the accused scammers put a link to the paperwork associated with their unregistered offering and purported exemption on the SEC’s website (as retrieved through EDGAR), then I’d say you are being disingenuous.
Lots of scammers raise the name of government agencies as part of their bids to sanitize a fraud and separate people from their money. Some of them even go a step beyond and misappropriate an agency’s name in ways such as registering a domain name that uses the agency’s name and/or using a .gov subdomain and/or using the word “government” or an abbreviation for “government” in the domain name.
Some scammers even sell what amounts to “kits” — website templates, etc. — to automate the scam as much as possible. They’ll plant any number of seeds: that the “opportunity” is endorsed by the government, that the SEC has given its stamp of approval, that an “SEC attorney” works for the “opportunity,” that the “opportunity” has appeared on “TV,” that major media outlets (CNN/Fox/MSNBC/ABC/CBS/ABC/USA Today, etc) have spotlighted the “opportunity.”
These things are done to loosen investors’ purse strings and to give them a sense of comfort. The “approach” comes straight from the scammer’s playbook.
No government agency has the budget and personnel to be at all places at all times and to monitor thousands of links in which scammers are using the name of an agency to sanitize a fraud. No media company has the budget and personnel to monitor around-the-clock trademark infringement or bids by scammers to imply a tie to a journalism brand.
The scammers know these things going in. At the early stages of a scam, they have a decided advantage. This Blog exists to try to minimize that advantage and to point out potential trouble spots.
It is the easiest thing in the world to criticize the government, and it goes without saying that the government makes mistakes and deserves criticism in some instances.
At least two of the alleged Commodities Online scammers had criminal records. Among the specific allegations is that investors were not told about these records — yet another element common to securities swindles.
I think it is virtually inarguable that the SEC “blew” early opportunities in both the Madoff and Stanford cases. Even so, members of Congress can get all full of themselves when they’re training their sights on a bureacracy. They often never get around to connecting some very important dots. One of them is that the Internet has created unprecedented opportunities for the scammers and that NO AGENCY can keep up with all of the scams, perhaps particularly electronic scams that shift forms whenever they feel the heat.
That is the bitter reality.
Kevin, have you noticed how JSS/JBP is trying to highlight a government “patent?”
Why do you suppose that is?
You appear to be angry because your son got ripped off by Commodities Online — and from there you imply it is the SEC’s fault.
You do this while while you imply you’ve done some homework on JSS/JBP and have found an “opportunity” that purports to pay 60 percent a month and does not disclose its base of operations somehow to be plausible.
Next, you bring up the Fed and Social Security, etc.
I have seen it so many times that it truly does make me want to vomit.
Even if — as you imply — the SEC somehow permitted your son to be ripped off through Commodities Online, it does not change the fact that you somehow view JSS/JBP as plausible and have a need to demonize the government while you’re doing it.
I think JSS/JBP is even less plausible than Commodities Online which, in itself, was implausible. The link to the SEC site on the Commodities Online could have been there for the express purpose of making Commodities Online appear to be more plausible.
Your anger, I believe, is misplaced.
Patrick
Your last sentence is exactly my point. “The link to the SEC site on the Commodities Online could have been there for the express purpose of making Commodities Online appear to be more plausible.”
It is that action, or inaction by the SEC that allowed my son to be lured into the scam one week before it was shut down. That is why I’m angry. They knew allowing the scammers to use their site would bring in more victims and yet they sat there and allowed my son to get duped of his entire savings.
I can only hope that the receiver will allow a clawback measure whereby those who received income from their investments will be put in the back of the line and those who had no gains be put in front.
This blog is obviousley not the place to vent my anger at govenment , but considering both government and ponzi operators both are corrupt in my mind, I felt compelled to gripe.
Striking out at anyone even remotely involved with you or yours being defrauded is completely normal.
HOWEVER, in the rapidly increasing internet fraud arena it is ESSENTIAL that consumers accept that true “due diligence” does NOT mean accepting everything written online as being true and accurate.
* Unlike on TV, fraud investigations take time, during which investigators cannot do anything which would arouse the suspicions of those under investigation.
* The US has a current population of 310+ million. The SEC has around 3,500 staff.
* By definition, fraudsters “defraud” They are not bound by societies’ norms. They lie, obfuscate, distract, delay, refuse to co operate, forge and fake.
The “law” on the other hand, rightly imposes severe restrictions on those charged with investigating and prosecuting.
* History tells us the investigative stage of a reasonably straightforward large scale fraud usually takes around 2 years, with another 2 years required to prosecute.
* One wonders what would be the reaction of the “Kevins” of this world if the same agencies jumped in and closed their favourite “investment opportunity” at the first hint of impropriety.
Here’s a 99 year old fraud that continues to this day.
http://kingdomecon.wordpress.com/
*yawn* still has nothing to do with your lie about ‘research’ to protect your scam.
I must apologize for my oversight.
For a while there I thought you were serious and responded accordingly.
I’ll be straight. I’m playing this not-so-legal e-business called HYIP for quite a long time now, and i’ll say i made quite a hefty sum out of it.
All kind of HYIP or whatever you wanna call it, is bound to crash hard to the ground at any moments, calling it eternally passive income is really BS.
For anyone who wanna try it, i suggest you learn a lot before deciding to cough up your money. Research objectively, don’t fall for their sweet dream they try to sell to you. And really, JUST USE THE MONEY THAT YOU ARE READY TO LOSE.
The only people who will make profit in this kind of gamble is the one who know when to put the money in, and when to run as fast as possible with all of your money. Think about it.
Oh, about JSS/JBP, in my humble opinion, they wont hold for long, if you want to throw your chip to them, just be ready for the consequences.
Every man for his own. Good and bad things that are bound to happen is the result of your own step.
Cheers.
Antony, at least you had your free agency to make your own decision. I see no difference between the HYIP scammers and Goldman Sachs. They scam thousands of investors and get a slap on the wrist every time they screw their investors up the ass. So I say, we have free agency to make our own decisions on what we do with our own money. If we choose a HYIP or Goldman Sachs, what’s the difference? THey are all scammers! Here’s the latest from RT on Goldman:
Can any of you solve the algorithm in JBP ? I think not ! You don’t mention member upgrades or the math in all this . If you were smart you would ride the wave . New customers help every business . Give it a rest .
Thanks. You and your lackeys are confirming this is all but dead in the water. None of you assclowns show up this often unless the scam is in dire straits and you will never get your money back.
Hey … well gues what? I put in over $30000 and earned over $50000 in 81 days. Where is the scam in all this? I joined 6 months ago. And here are the top earners to date:
JSS-Tripler’s Top 20 Earners
Earn # Account Funding Active Positions # of Refs up to 2% Earnings Referral Bonuses Total Earnings
1 $79360.65 20833 6 $507087.70 $32939.50 $540027.20
2 $52492.12 24423 1 $459104.75 $71784.00 $530888.75
3 $27786.50 4957 368 $163882.75 $303861.50 $467744.25
4 $144559.79 23969 12 $414216.55 $29197.00 $443413.55
5 $106548.00 13909 0 $430717.70 $0.00 $430717.70
6 $5259.10 14197 41 $200338.05 $108855.00 $309193.05
7 $82085.00 7459 45 $273307.50 $20359.00 $293666.50
8 $30938.91 10874 23 $126285.85 $131987.00 $258272.85
9 $64067.00 5622 145 $220536.60 $6403.00 $226939.60
10 $30009.00 7268 10 $219521.45 $5583.50 $225104.95
11 $13262.24 4443 122 $163082.05 $60000.50 $223082.55
12 $14766.45 7574 15 $152890.15 $66556.50 $219446.65
13 $74150.96 10307 9 $182362.80 $32182.50 $214545.30
14 $7343.50 10606 2 $136165.65 $69426.00 $205591.65
15 $28883.00 13901 2 $200981.55 $3369.00 $204350.55
16 $27201.00 0 2 $178609.20 $20378.00 $198987.20
17 $38955.00 5184 1 $188160.15 $1849.00 $190009.15
18 $6721.00 1400 41 $36934.90 $148776.00 $185710.90
19 $26485.00 9280 4 $181448.30 $2985.00 $184433.30
20 $32257.35 11867 5 $173928.20 $9272.50 $183200.70
And there are the top 10 promoters:
JSS-Tripler’s Top 10 Promoters
Promoter # # of Referrals Referral Earnings
1 368 $303861.50
2 41 $148776.00
3 92 $139365.00
4 23 $131987.00
5 41 $108855.00
6 263 $94965.50
7 441 $94561.50
8 151 $90258.00
9 1 $88684.00
10 645 $82478.00
It’s all good! Quite your complaining and try it out. You can make your money back in 50 days. JUST SHUT UP AND DO IT and then come back here and prove me wrong. That is my challenge to you.
Cheers
Yeah … you all could all use the money, You … Patrict (admin), your friends sponge Bob and Whip creme and little old round man … you too … I love you all … JUST DO IT Brother …
I have asked dozens of people who claimed to have seen this formula and could not find any flaw to PLEASE send it to me so I can have a crack at claiming the $1 million for finding the flaw.
NONE OF THEM were able to produce it.
Could it be that NONE OF THEM have actually seen it?
Could it be they are ALL LIARS?
Could it be this formula DOES NOT EXIST?
And now “Slime” I am asking YOU, have you seen it?
Can you produce it so I can try to find the flaw?
The SCAM in all this is…
One way or another this scheme WILL die, that is a guaranteed certainty.
When it dies the VAST majority of people who put money in… WILL LOSE IT.
The profit you make is money by (STOLEN from) other people.
Does that bother your conscience at all?
Or are you just another scumbag that does not care who gets hurt as long as it is not you?
“The profit you make is money by (STOLEN from) other people.”
Should be, The profit you make is money lost by (STOLEN from) other people.
Boy, could the Greek government (and many other governments) use these skills, i.e. by “re-starting” turning liabilities into assets. Instead of huge debts, all of a sudden huge assets, with liquidity to spare;-)
Just goes to show, really well thought out ponzi schemes may have something to teach governments after all.
Might be worth while for governments to buy these “positions” rather than issue treasuries/gov. paper, and relying on those nasty financial markest to fund their profligacy! This would be a much easier and reliable method to fund running expenses (ad nauseum, not need for austerity).
The big lump on my cheek is my tongue!
Quick note: “jbpuser” is advancing a conspiracy theory in this thread:
https://patrickpretty.com/2012/05/25/urgent-bulletin-moving-jssjbps-frederick-mann-admits-company-is-not-registered-government-workers-part-of-a-criminal-gang-of-robbers-thieves-murderers-liars-imposters-program-patri/
I have permitted “jbpuser” to post provisionally because the “defenses” for JSS/JBP may be instructive to readers, especially when they’re juxtaposed against a conspiracy theory.
These types of “defenses” and deflections surface in HYIP fraud scheme after HYIP fraud scheme. Some JSS/JBP “defenders” have been dialing it up against the PP Blog in recent days.
JSS/JBP has gotten so bizarre that Frederick Mann is telling members whose support tickets have been trapped in a sort of circular customer-service hell for weeks that they should read a purported self-improvement manual before and after submitting tickets.
It has become clear in the conference calls that any number of JSS/JBP members are managing JSS/JBP accounts AND payment-processing accounts for their downline recruits. It also is very clear that senior citizens are involved in and/or affected by this morass, and that the prospect of especially painful consequences is high.
Patrick
[…] Frederick Mann appears to have backed away from his March 15 guidance to members that it was OK to use the language of investments when pitching the “program” to […]
You have made a huge mistake Mr. Higgins.
First of all I run know schemes. Everything I have has products.
Second of all, I do not promote JBP at all.
Third of all…and your biggest mistake…you openly admitted that you had my password to my alert pay account. Now Mr. Higgins how did you get that information? Plus, if you did login to my account then you are even in more trouble.
Quick note: A comment that once appeared in this thread has been at least temporarily deleted until I have a chance to review a complaint.
Patrick
Hey, is Dawn Wright-Oliveras reading from the same script, one wonders? One is quickly reminded of that “toilet paper” analogy.
As far as the first, John, your programs have been money shuffling schemes, first and foremost. Whether your future planned programs will have definite products remains to be seen, but cash gifting is not a “product” nor does it comply with the terms hammered out in the Amway trial of the 1970s regarding sales to non-distributors.
The second, I have no answer to. I only know that you sent Fred money, not whether you did any advertising of his program or not.
As far as the third… go to a Google or another search engine of your choice, type said password into the search parameters along with the word “supreme.” See the entry that comes up – dated Mar. 15, 2010 when I check it? I bumped into that while investigating someone quite different, and recognized the significance of what those hackers had published. Now, is it my fault or yours that you were still using that same password well over a year since it was exposed to the world? How many other, less-vocal people realized whose passwords were in that posting?
Maybe you can be more specific Mr. Mann as to when the triplers and matrices are going to start to be paid and placed on time. Daily payments for triplers are now taking days and matrices are not being filled timely.The answer I get for matrices are 30-60 days. Not good enough Mr. Mann. I joined your site because of the quick benefits. Now we are told to be patient. Is this going to be fixed and approximately how long will it take?
Typically when sites start to back peddle on benefits, they become scams. What is going on here?
Pls what is going on here Mr Mann how can you help I funded my account on justbeen paid from my liberty reserve but didn’t reflect on my jss account…my email is [deleted by admin] and bellow is the tarnsfer details
Transfer Details from liberty reserve
Date; 08/02/2012
Time: 12:47
Batch no: 105624108
Account: U8021962 (JustBeenPaid) –
Amount: $428.00
Thanks
Oladimeji
Dear mr. Mann, what is really happening with jbp/jsstripler?. I have tried going to the site but its re-directing me to another site. i am a member, i had wanted to access my account. I dont want to believe what people are saying – that its a scam and so automatically shut down.
There is just to many “coincidences here”. 1st monies were hanging in between money processors and JBP/ JSS, then no payments for days, blamed on server upgrades, then profitClicking buys JBP/ JSS with simultaneous resignation of Frederick mann..then behold behold… ProfitClicking taking forever migrating data/ info. C’mon guys let us just wake up and smell the coffee…
I am afraid.. this is it! We have been scammed big time here….
Trusted Fred Mann, compounded all earnings from Jan 07,2012 to Sept 15 when I withdrew $500 earning $3,000 mo. Early Oct 2012
JBP sold and earnings stopped, resuming in Dec 2012 when I had
$3k+ a month Dec and Jan. $4k next 4 mos. then 5K+. Calculating
4K+ mos earnings (4 mos)= $343,000 at each 4 month = $2.0+ million excluding previous earnings still compounding.
28,000+ EXPIRED same day shown in my acct. New balance $11,000 in Basic Wallet which cannot be withdrawn until new money is deposited and 10% of new money from Basic can be added to withdrawals. ALL MONEY NOT IN THE WALLET IS LOST IF NEVER WITHDRAWN.